HL Deb 18 December 1962 vol 245 cc1022-5

2.56 p.m.

Report of Amendments received (according to Order).

Clause 4 [Term of detention and supervision under a sentence of borstal training]:

LORD HUGHES moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "subsection (3) of the said section 33" and insert "section 33 (3) of the said Act". The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendment No. 1 is a very simple one. When this Bill was last considered it was noticed that in Clause 4, unwontedly, the draftsmen had gone in for variety rather than tidiness. This Amendment restores the position to its customary one, changes the reference to subsection (3) of the said Section 33 and brings it into line with three other references in the same clause. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 16, leave out ("subsection (3) of the said section 33") and insert ("section 33 (3) of the said Act").—(Lord Hurdles.)

THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (LORD CRAIGTON)

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord and would ask your Lordships to accept this Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 10 [Transfer between institutions]:

LORD CRAIGTON

My Lords, it had been overlooked in the earlier stages of this Bill that under the Services Acts persons sentenced to imprisonment may be transferred by the Service authorities to civil prisons to serve their sentence. The purpose of this Amendment is to have such offenders, if under 21, transferred instead to a young offenders institution, in accordance with one of the main purposes of this Bill. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 6, line 28, at end insert

("(3) Where an order has been made under any of the enactments specified in the next following subsection for the committal or transfer to a civil prison in Scotland of a person who is under twenty-one years of age, that person shall be taken to a young offenders institution.

(4) (a) The enactments referred to in the last foregoing subsection are—

and any rules made thereunder.

(b) For the purposes of the aforesaid enactments, any reference therein to a like sentence of a civil court shall include, in relation to a person taken to a young offenders institution under the last foregoing subsection, a reference to a sentence of detention in a young offenders institution, and references to a civil prison and to imprisonment and any cognate references shall be construed accordingly.")—(Lord Craigton.)

BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD

My Lords, I wonder whether I might say one word on this Amendment. I think it is an excellent idea to have this young offenders institution, to have somewhere to send the somewhat psychopathic young people between 17 and 21 and also those for whom borstal training is inappropriate. But I take a very dim view indeed of the prison to which they propose to send these young people. I understand it is to be the old Dumfries Prison which the Government are going to refurbish, and I think that this prison is totally unsuited for this purpose. It is old-fashioned and it is not of very easy access to people who are likely to visit there and who come from the industrial belt of Scotland, because Dumfries is a long way away. The young offenders will not be able to be visited very easily, and visiting is one of the things which would help in their rehabilitation. The atmosphere of a real prison like this, with cells and all the impedimenta of old-fashioned prisons, is most unsuitable, and I would beg the noble Lord and the Secretary of State to see whether it is not possible to find other accommodation.

I should have thought that accommodation such as a large house standing in its own grounds, which could perhaps no longer be used by private individuals, would have been the ideal kind of building for a prison of this kind, and I feel that this particular building in Dumfries will not give any chance of success to this new idea of a young persons' institution. I beg of the noble Lord to see whether or not it is possible, before deciding to open and use this prison, to find other accommodation which would be much more suitable. I do not think this is suitable. I do not think it will give the experiment a chance, and I consider it would be better not to have an institution if it is going to be in premises such as I have described in this old Dumfries prison.

LORD CRAIGTON

My Lords, I am afraid I can give my noble friend no more satisfactory reply than I gave to her in Committee. We really must have a young offenders institution: it is far preferable to young offenders' continuing to mix with older criminals; and, if we want it quickly, there is nowhere else it can go except Dumfries. We are engaged on a development programme for all penal institutions, both by erecting new buildings and by trying to obtain existing buildings and adapting them. We are doing everything we possibly can, but I think the urgency of having a young offenders institution overrides the noble Baroness's understandable worry about the type of premises in which it is being provided.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 35 [Power to search for forfeited articles]:

LORD HUGHES moved to leave out all words from "oath" down to "issue" and to substitute: (a) that there is reasonable cause to believe that the article is to be found in any place or premises; and (b) that admission to the place or premises has been refused or that a refusal of such admission is apprehended.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 3, I would remind your Lordships that at the last stage of this Bill my noble friend Lord Greenhill referred to a possible doubt as to the wording in Clause 35 as it stands, that the apprehension of a refusal of admission to premises might be regarded as an alternative not only to an actual refusal but to reasonable cause for belief that the articles were found on the premises. By dividing the clause into these two parts, (a) and (b), we make it perfectly clear, I think, that the first one, that there is reasonable cause to believe that the article is to be found in any place or premises", applies in all circumstances, and that the other two conditions are alternative to each other. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, will find it possible to accept this second Amendment and give me an opportunity not only of breaking my duck but of doing it twice in one day.

Amendment moved—

Page 21, line 6, leave out from ("oath") to ("issue") in line 9 and insert the said new paragraphs.—(Lord Hughes.)

LORD CRAIGTON

I am grateful to the noble Lord. He is quite right. I agree with him, and I ask your Lordships to accept this Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule 5 [Minor and consequential amendments]:

LORD CRAIGTON

My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 36, line 13, at end insert—

("In section 78 (4), after the word 'under' there shall be inserted the words 'any enactment including'.").—(Lord Craigton.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule 6 [Enactments repealed]:

LORD CRAIGTON

My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 41, column 3, line 44, at end insert—("Section 31 (4) (a).").—(Lord Craigton.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of December 13), Bill read 3a: an Amendment (privilege) made; Bill passed and sent to the Commons.