§ EARL DE LA WARRMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the practice of delivery vehicles waiting alongside parked vehicles in relatively narrow streets, in a way which prevents the circulation of traffic; and what steps they propose to take in the matter.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM)My Lords, my right honourable friend, the Minister of Transport, is aware of this practice. In his view the best way to stop it is to control kerbside parking, leaving sufficient kerbside space clear for delivery vehicles. One of the ways of achieving this is by parking meter schemes, introduced by orders made by my right honourable friend on the application of the local authority. In places unsuitable for parking meters, waiting restrictions can be imposed which include an exemption for vehicles loading or unloading. My right honourable friend is always ready to consider proposals for such waiting restrictions from local authorities in the London Traffic Area. Outside the London Traffic Area local authorities can impose the restrictions themselves. Where no restrictions are in force, the police have power to deal with unreasonable obstruction under the existing law.
§ EARL DE LA WARRI thank the noble Lord for his Answer. May I take it from that Answer that the permission given to trading vehicles to park for purposes of loading or unloading extends to their being able to sit in the middle of the road and completely obstruct all passage? That was the purpose of my Question. I do not think the noble Lord, if I may say so, really answered it.
§ LORD CHESHAMI am sorry the noble Earl should think that; I will endeavour to do better this time. The whole of the law of obstruction of the highway is extremely complicated, as your Lordships will know. The brief on it which I have been reading runs to six pages of foolscap closely typed, but I 680 will not inflict that upon your Lordships. The most important word in the original Answer was the word "unreasonable", where I referred to the police dealing with unreasonable obstruction, because it seems that, whether at the kerbside or in the middle of the road, the word "un-reasonable" is the one which qualifies the obstruction. I do not think your Lordships would complain of a vehicle which could not stop anywhere else halting very briefly to deliver a parcel or unload something, but when it stops for a long enough period to become unreasonable, then it is committing an offence for which the police may take action. I hope that will clarify the situation a little more.
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, may I support the noble Earl on this point? The Minister talks about "unreasonable" and about stopping for a reasonable time. I happen to travel in an area where cars park on tooth sides. It is a major bus route. One finds a vehicle unloading on one side and 20 yards further along another vehicle loading on the other side. That is four vehicles on the road. The buses have to pass one another, and I have sat in the bus three minutes while they manæuvred to get by. The police are not there. The police may have power, but the power is not worth anything unless the police are there to exercise it.
§ VISCOUNT STUART OF FINDHORNMy Lords, could I ask my noble friend the Minister one question? In order to enable this delivery business to proceed, which is no doubt necessary, is it not necessary to leave spaces between the parking meters so that delivery vehicles can pull in, instead of allowing the authorities to put up parking meters throughout the length of all the streets in London and elsewhere in their greed to collect sixpences and shillings out of a slot machine, instead of using the roads for what they were originally intended, which is not garages.
§ LORD CHESHAMWhat my noble friend suggests is exactly what is in fact done. The leaving of unloading bays for delivery vehicles is an integral part of any parking meter scheme and it is exactly what is done. I think he can be easily satisfied on that point. So far as the police are concerned, if they 681 are not there, naturally nothing happens; it must stand to reason. Whether they should be there is really another matter. What I wanted to point out was that they had power to deal with this matter where obstruction was unreasonable. I do not know what further I can say on that except in answer to what my noble friend wanted to know, which was whether they had the power or not. They have.
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, my point is that this is not a parking meter area, and it is true the police are not there; but if the Ministry of Transport want to see the confusion that is caused and would put some inspectors on the job, they would soon find that something is required to be done.
§ LORD CHESHAMI do not know quite which area the noble Lord As talking about, but, for all I know, that may have happened and there may be a scheme in preparation. Perhaps he will let me know which area it is.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in one of the streets leading from Shaftesbury Avenue to Soho Square, a fairly narrow street, there are parking meters on the left of the road and on the right of the road, with room for only one line of traffic in between. That line of traffic is frequently occupied by a commercial lorry. Is it not curious that you should have parking meters one side of the road and the other side of the road, whereby a positive obstruction of all traffic takes place from time to time? Could the noble Lord say why it is that in the Provinces the local authorities can do as they like about these matters and in London they cannot? He may say the London Government Bill will alter that. It will not—not by any means as long as this Minister is in office. How long are the Government going to continue treating London as a Grown Colony?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, I have seldom heard such a barrelful of red herrings on a matter of this kind. I would merely tell the noble Lord something which he himself knows perfectly well: that the authorities outside London can do these things for themselves be-cause they are the highway authorities for their areas, whereas my right honourable friend is that authority for London.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHIn the area I have mentioned the highway authority is the City of Westminster, which, despite its dignified title, is a metropolitan borough and that is all. Why should he say there are no highway authorities in London? All the metropolitan boroughs are highway authorities, and his right honourable friend is the highway authority only where it is a trunk road.
§ LORD CHESHAMI am sorry; I should have said traffic authority.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHThat is because he is a Czar.
EARL DA LA WARRMy Lords, the purpose of my question was to try to obtain from Her Majesty's Government a certain piece of information which I have not yet obtained. The noble Lord talks about unreasonable obstruction. I want to hear from him whether, in his view, total obstruction is unreasonable. Speaking of personal experience, the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, says he sometimes has had to wait three minutes in the bus. I have frequently, in the cul de sac in which I live, had to wait a quarter of an hour while a very small milk cart is there which the milkman says he does not have to remove. Would the noble Lord tell us whether total obstruction is unreasonable?
§ LORD CHESHAMThe noble Earl is really trying to put me in a very difficult position.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHThat is what the noble Lord is paid for.
§ LORD CHESHAMYes, but not enough. The noble Earl is trying to get me to give an interpretation by the Government which is normally expected to be made by the courts—whether an offence involving an element of unreasonableness is unreasonable or not. I cannot say that total obstruction ipso facto is unreasonable. One would normally tend to think it is, but whether a given case of it is unreasonable or not is surely for the courts to determine; it is not for me to give a categorical answer to my noble friend. I should have thought, if this will help him at all, that the practice to which he refers is a very undesirable one. Furthermore, it is one which is spreading, with a very unfortunate tendency by some drivers of 683 delivery vehicles—and, may I add, of taxis as well—not to bother to pull into the kerb even when there is room. On top of that, I have noticed—I have personally observed three cases recently—they also leave the engine running in streets where often children are playing; all of which is extremely bad for the traffic, very dangerous and utterly undesirable. I am completely at one with my noble friend in condemning the practice, particularly in the last instance I mention. I certainly propose to convey what he has been saying to my right honourable friend the Home Secretary in the hope that the police will read his words and we shall get some further action in the matter.
§ EARL DE LA WARRI thank the noble Lord.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGHCertainly I know of some provincial places where there are hours of delivery agreed and authorised. Why has Chat not been done, so far as possible, in the Metropolitan area?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, of course it is. Without wanting to go into great detail, perhaps the noble Viscount will allow me to send him particulars of it.
LORD FARINGDONMy Lords, it seems to me that this trouble might to some extent be met if the police were to designate certain areas or lengths of the kerb as unloading bays. I think this is already done where there is going to be extensive building or redecorating operations, because I have seen notices saying "No parking" in areas where ordinarily there is parking, and I have seen those areas used by such vehicles. But why should there not be these unloading bays, reasonably accessible to all houses, which could be used by delivery vans?
§ LORD CHESHAMAs I have just said, in the meter zones there are such bays. Outside the zones it could be done perfectly well by the waiting restrictions that I have mentioned. This can, in effect, be done by a length of restricted waiting room from which delivery vehicles are exempt. It is perfectly possible to do that. Whether or not it is desirable is, I presume, a matter for local judgment. But the only remaining 684 thing to be settled, as the noble Lord, Lord Faringdon and I live in the same square, is whether the delivery bay shall be outside his front door or mine.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, may I ask a question the purpose of which is to put in a word for the milkman? How can he deliver milk from a bay? That is not where it is wanted; it is wanted at the front door. And is it not possible for the noble Earl to drive down another street, bearing in, mind that people must have their milk?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, I quite agree with that. Unfortunately, there are occasions when noble Lords like the noble Lord, Lord Faringdon, and I happen to live in the same street, and we want our milk.