HL Deb 10 December 1962 vol 245 cc411-4

3.26 p.m.

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, with the permission of the House, I will repeat the reply which my right honourable friend the Minister of Health has just made to a Question in another place. I quote his words:

"My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I are ready to approve, under Section 28 of the National Health Service Act and the corresponding section of the Scottish Act, proposals from local health authorities to make arrangements with water undertakers for the addition of fluoride to water supplies which are deficient in it naturally. Where this is done the incidence of dental decay in young children should be reduced by about half."

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

I am quite sure, my Lords, that those who have examined this question of fluoridation, those at least with some knowledge who have not regarded it already with a prejudiced mind, will welcome this statement by the Government. However, could I ask the noble Lord whether this is to be permissive or compulsory?

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, it is always my aim to please the noble Baroness—

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

You have.

LORD NEWTON

—and I am glad that I have succeeded in doing so this afternoon. Perhaps I could add that Her Majesty's Government have no power to prevent the sale or distribution of fluoride in any form. In answer to her question, this is permissive. It is now up to the local health authorities to submit their proposals to my right honourable friend, and he hopes that they will do so.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

I thank the noble Lord.

LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether consideration has been given to the problem of whether it is legal to add medicines or drugs to public water supplies? May I also ask why fluoride should be forced down the throats of everybody, whether they have teeth or not?

LORD NEWTON

In answer to the noble Lord's first question, it is true that doubts have been expressed in some quarters about the legal position. The point could be determined only by the courts. But my right honourable friend takes the view that to add fluoride to water is within the powers of water undertakers, and, in the event of court proceedings, (he will indemnify both the local authority concerned and the water undertaker.

In reply to the noble Lord's second question, I can assure him that all relevant matters have been considered and there is no question of the Government's trying to force anything down anyone's throat. It is up to the local health authority to make proposals to my right honourable friend under the Act, if they think fit. Perhaps I should also add that fluoride is present in virtually all the water that one drinks. It varies in amount from place to place. I think that the maximum natural content in this country is 6 parts per million; in some parts of the world the maximum is 14 parts per million.

LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH

Is the noble Lord aware that there is a great deal of evidence that with that content irreparable injury is done to a great many people? And, in any event, why should it be said that because fluoride is naturally present to a very small extent in most cases in water supplies it is desirable to increase it? Would not exactly the same argument apply in the case of radioactive materials which are also, unfortunately, naturally present in water supplies and other substances?

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, there is absolutely no evidence whatever that the presence of fluoride in water to the extent of one part per million has any deleterious effects at all or is harmful in any way to anybody. I do hope that the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, will come to my support if anywhere in the country mischievous suggestions are made to the effect that this is potentially dangerous.

BARONESS HORSBRUGH

My Lords, as the noble Lord has said the Government do not wish to force this down people's throats, is he suggesting that those who do not think it is a good thing should never drink water again?

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, I think they should decide that for themselves.

LORD LINDGREN

My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that much of what is now being said in regard to the addition of fluoride was said also in regard to the addition of iodine to certain waters which were short of it, particularly in Derbyshire and in the Midlands? Therefore, this is in effect carrying on a procedure which has proved beneficial in regard to the iodising of water.

LORD NEWTON

Yes, my Lords, I think I can agree with the noble Lord about that. Perhaps I may add that cheese, chicken, fish, tea and beer are all particularly rich in fluoride.

LORD HAWKE

My Lords, yesterday I received a pamphlet which, among other things, alleged that fluoride was an ingredient of rat poison. Could the noble Lord deny that this is the case?

LORD NEWTON

I do not know whether it is or not, my Lords. But I am quite certain that fluoride in rat poison, if there is any, does not make rat poison poisonous.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, in view of the fact, as we have already heard in this House, that a good deal of ignorance exists about the beneficial effects of fluoridation, would the noble Lord tell me what the Government propose to do in order to publicise this, and to explain to the people of the country the beneficial effects? Otherwise, the ignorance which we have just heard expressed will, of course, be expressed in various parts of the country, and local authorities who wish to be progressive will be unable to act because of obstruction.

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, I have no doubt that a certain amount of publicity will be given thorough the proceedings this afternoon in your Lordships' House. But among those bodies which have made representations in favour of fluoridation to my right honourable friend are the Society of Medical Officers of Health, the County Councils Association and the Executive Councils Association; and the British Medical Association have written expressing favourable views. So all those bodies, some of whom, at any rate, can be expected to take the lead in getting local health authorities to support proposals to my right honourable friend, are clearly interested, and have in fact asked him to get on with what I have announced this afternoon.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, would it not be a good idea to get one of the more handsome members of the Government to do a television interview on the subject?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

Would the noble Lady mean me?

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

I was thinking of a handsome member with perfect teeth, if there is one.

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, I thought for a moment that the noble Baroness was referring to me. But after what she has just said at this moment, I conclude that she As not referring to me.

BARONESS HORSBRUGH

My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether Her Majesty's Government have remembered what has recently happened in one local authority area in Scotland, which had this scheme and has now given it up?

LORD NEWTON

Yes, my Lords; I am aware of that.

LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH

My Lords, is this another endeavour to add to the unpopularity of the Government in view of the imminence of a General Election?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, on this happy note, do you think we might now have the second statement by my noble friend Lord Lansdowne?