LIVERPOOL HOSPITAL'S NURSING STAFF PROBLEM (Hansard, 17 April 1962)

§ THE EARL OF ALBEMARLE
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper

§ LORD NEWTON
My Lords, I understand that the hospital in question is Walton. There have in fact been four applicants who the hospital authorities have decided were not suitable, and a fifth who responded to the most recent advertisement and is to be interviewed to-morrow. With regard to the second part of the Question, a similar post in the same region advertised last January at a lower salary has already been filled. The main reasons for the difficulty at Walton are thought to be that the hospital is old and the theatres not up to modern standards. The hospital is to be completely rebuilt under the Hospital Plan. It is intended that the first stages, starting soon, should include a new theatre block.

§ THE EARL OF ALBEMARLE
My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for an Answer, which can hardly prove satisfactory to those who read it. may I ask whether he will ask his right honourable friend immediately after the Easter Recess to go into the question of the shortage and pay of nurses, which is of dire urgency, though not actually allied to my Question?

§ LORD NEWTON
My Lords, my noble friend has rather enlarged the matter before your Lordships' House, not altogether to my surprise. As regards the staffing situation, it is absolutely true that the recruiting trends of nurses and midwives have gone steadily upwards for a number of years, and to-day the staffing position of our hospitals is more nearly adequate than it has 779 been at any time. As regards the question of the pay of nurses generally, the position is that the recent offer of 2½ per cent. made by the management side of the Whitley Council was within the limitations which the Government's incomes policy imposes in present circumstances. That offer does not reflect, and should not be taken as reflecting, the value which the Government put upon the services of nurses or midwives. I must emphasise that the Government's incomes policy is a national policy and it is not designed to be applied only to members of professions such as the nursing profession. I would also point out in this context that the success of this policy, to which the Government attach the greatest importance, should make it easier in the future to adjust and revalue the remuneration of selected professions and occupations without the constant risk of merely increasing inflationary pressure.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH
My Lords, does not the noble Lord really think that an answer like that at the present time will simply increase the militancy of the nurses' organisations in their public demands, already completely justified by the facts?

§ LORD NEWTON
My Lords, that is possibly even further still from the Walton Hospital. I would not be prepared to agree with the noble Viscount in what he said. I should have thought that it must be apparent to any person Who thinks objectively about these questions that it is members of the professions who down the years have lost most through the absence of an incomes policy, and it is members of the professions who will stand Ito benefit most from this policy if it is successful, as I hope it will be.

§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILL
My Lords, the noble Lord has just stated that the number of nurses is adequate. We are dependent on nurses who are immigrants in this country. Is it not a fact that the English girl is not prepared to enter the hospital because of the very low pay to which she is subjected? Furthermore, may I ask this on the subject of Liverpool? If the noble Lord says that a woman is not prepared to take the job because the hospital is a hundred years old, is he not aware that most of 780 the hospitals in this country are nearly a hundred years old, and is not the situation in Liverpool reflected throughout the country—that experienced women of this kind will not undertake these jobs at the low pay which is offered?

§ LORD NEWTON
My Lords, I did not say what the noble Baroness at the beginning of her supplementary question suggested I said. What I said earlier was that to-day the staffing position in our hospitals is more nearly adequate than at any time in the past—

§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILL
Not with English girls.

§ LORD NEWTON
—or words to that effect. As far as the general nursing situation at Walton is concerned, it is quite good, and it is better than the national average. The difficulty there has been over this question of a theatre superintendent, and that, as I say, is thought to be due to the condition of the hospital; but I should not like it to be thought from that that this particular difficulty at Walton over the theatre superintendent represents the picture of conditions generally in the Region or in the country as a whole.

§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILL
Then might I ask the noble Lord whether it is not a fact that to-day our hospitals are staffed by immigrant doctors and nurses; that 40 per cent. of our medical staff are immigrants or doctors coming here for service, and that perhaps a little less than 40 per cent. of our regular nursing staff are immigrants? My point is that it is not correct to imply that our nurses are now recruited from girls in this country.

§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM)
My Lords, I think that the Question was one which related to a particular application for a particular job in a particular hospital. If the noble Baroness wants to put herself in order by debating the general staffing position, I think she really ought to put down a Motion.

§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILL
My Lords, could I ask the Leader of the House this question—namely, is it correct in this House that if the noble Lord makes a statement, as the noble Lord 781 did, on the staffing of hospitals, a Member of this House cannot ask him a question?

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
My Lords, the noble Baroness can ask any question she likes. But I think the House should keep itself in order, whatever she asks.

§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH
I protest at once. I heard absolutely nothing in what the noble Baroness has said which was out of order. The noble Earl who raised this Question received answers on questions of adequacy of nursing—answers of a general character given by the Minister, including answers on wages and salaries. I think my noble friend has kept herself perfectly in order in following that up.

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
My Lords, it is of course for the House, and not for the noble Viscount or myself, to say what is in order. The only submission I made to the House was that on a Question about a particular hospital we cannot indulge in a general debate on wages and salaries; and I believe the House will support me about that.

§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH
My Lords, my point is, once again, that an Answer was given in perfectly general and national terms for the whole country as well as for Liverpool. Surely, we are entitled—we shall insist on being entitled—to put questions which arise out of a Minister's direct answer.

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
My Lords, my noble friend is perfectly right to answer the questions which were put to him. But I am sure that the House will wish to follow its usual procedure, which is not to hold a general debate about a particular Question.

§ LORD LINDGREN
My Lords, the noble Viscount the Leader of the House has referred to this as being "a particular Question". The content of the Answer concerned the 2½ per cent. national wages policy of Her Majesty's Government. Are we to take it that, if it is introduced by a Minister, that is outside the scope of general questioning?

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
My Lords, the fact that a Minister may refer to general issues in his Answer does not entitle the House, unless it so wishes, to carry on a general debate.

§ LORD LINDGREN
It is a good way of getting out of it.