Lords Sitting of 31 October 1961

THE QUEEN'S SPEECH
The QUEEN, being seated on the Throne, and attended by Her Officers of State (the Lords being in their robes), commanded the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, through the Lord Great Chamberlain, to let the Commons know, "It is Her Majesty's pleasure they attend Her immediately in this House."
Who being come, with their Speaker:
Her Majesty was pleased to speak as follows:
"My Lords and Members of the House of Commons
"My Husband and I look forward to our coming journey to West Africa.
"It gives Me much pleasure that My Husband is to visit the countries of Latin America next year and that Princess Alexandra is on her way to South-East Asia and the Far East.
"I shall be glad to welcome President Sukarno of Indonesia on a State visit to this country.
"My Government will continue to give resolute support to the United Nations. They believe it to be essential for the future of the world that the authority of this organisation should be sustained, and that it should be enabled to carry out the tasks assigned to it under its Charter.
"The improvement of relations between East and West remains a primary object of My Government's policy, and they will continue to seek peaceful co-operation with all countries.
"My Government will seek, in conjunction with their allies, to achieve by negotiation a settlement of the Berlin question which will preserve the security and freedom of the people of West Berlin.
"The North Atlantic Alliance is now more than ever essential for the continued safety of Europe and the world. My Government will continue to play their part in keeping it and the other regional pacts to which we belong strong and united. The close friendship between this country and the United States will be maintained and, in co-operation with My allies, My armed forces will continue to contribute to the prevention of war. Legislation will be proposed giving power to retain for an additional six months certain National Servicemen who are serving full-time, and to recall for a similar period National Servicemen who have a liability to part-time service. In addition, the reserve organisation of My army will be reviewed.
"My Government will continue to work for the success of the Geneva Conference on Laos and for the maintenance of peace in South-East Asia.
"Guided by the principles agreed upon between the Prime Ministers of the Commonwealth countries at their

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last Meeting, My Government will do their utmost to achieve general and complete disarmament under effective international control. In spite of the action of the Soviet Union in continuing to conduct nuclear tests on a massive scale in defiance of world opinion, My Government will persevere in their endeavour to promote an international agreement on the discontinuance of tests of nuclear weapons.
"A measure will be laid before you to amend the law to accord with the new status of South Africa.
"Legislation will be introduced to enable Southern Rhodesia to be granted a new Constitution.
"Bills will be introduced to provide for the independence of Tanganyika and of Uganda and for constitutional changes in the West Indies.
"My Government will make every effort to bring to a successful conclusion the negotiations which they are undertaking with the European Economic Community and will at all times maintain close consultation with the interests involved in the United Kingdom and with the other members of the Commonwealth and of the European Free Trade Association.
"Members of the House of Commons
"Estimates for the public services will be laid before you in due course.
"My Lords and Members of the House of Commons
"My Ministers will continue to direct their policies towards maintaining the stability of sterling. They will seek to strengthen the balance of payments by the measures already announced, including especially the vigorous promotion of exports. Legislation will be laid before you to raise the limits of the liabilities to be assumed by the Export Credits Guarantee Department.
"My Ministers will continue to seek the co-operation of both sides of industry in the better co-ordination of the national effort with a view to promoting faster economic growth, while maintaining stability in prices and a high and stable level of employment.
"They will seek to keep public expenditure within limits justified by the national resources. Continuing efforts will be made to secure a better relationship between increases in incomes and in national productivity.
"My Government will introduce a Bill to give effect to the proposals already submitted to you for the re-organisation of the undertakings under the control of the British Transport Commission.
"A Bill will be introduced to ensure the orderly development of privately-owned industrial pipelines.
"Proposals will be laid before you to amend the law relating to teachers' salaries, school-leaving dates and the award of grants to students.
"My Government are resolved to maintain a stable, efficient and prosperous agricultural industry. They will lay before you a Bill to implement their proposals on the Report by the Committee on the Fishing Industry and on drift netting for salmon.
"Legislation will be proposed to amend local government financial arrangements in Scotland; to secure better distribution of Scottish housing subsidies and amend the law relating to housing in other respects: and to make certain amendments in the licensing law of Scotland.
"Proposals will be laid before you for improving the machinery for administering criminal justice with a view to securing greater expedition and efficiency.
"Legislation will be introduced to control the immigration to the United Kingdom of British subjects from other parts of the Commonwealth, and to give powers for the expulsion of immigrants convicted of criminal offences.
"A Bill will be introduced to improve the provision for supplementing workmen's compensation and to make certain alterations in the administration of the schemes for family allowances, national insurance and industrial injuries.
"Plans will be laid before you for tike development of the hospitals over

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the next decade, within the framework of the National Health Service as a whole.
"Authority will be sought for the establishment of national training councils for health visitors and social workers.
"You will be invited to approve a measure designed to promote greater safety on the roads.
"Other measures will be laid before you in due course.
"My Lords and Members of the House of Commons
"I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may rest upon your counsels."
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed at half-past three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Leicester

ROLL OF THE LORDS
Garter King of Arms, attending, delivered a list of the Lords Temporal in the Third Session of the Forty-second Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Ordered, That the said List do lie on the Table.

SELECT VESTRIES
Bill, pro forma, read 1a.

ADDRESS IN REPLY TO HER MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH
The Queen's Speech reported by The LORD CHANCELLOR.
3.45 p.m.
LORD MELCHETT: My Lords, I beg to move, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty as followeth:
"Most Gracious Sovereign—We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal
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subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to thank Your Majesty for the most gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."
My Lords, I am very conscious of the honour which the noble Viscount the Leader of the House has done me in selecting me to move that this humble Address be presented to Her Majesty. This task equally imposes a responsibility, and I confess that I have little confidence in my ability to discharge adequately that responsibility. I feel that at no time since the end of the Second World War have your Lordships reassembled at Westminster to be confronted with quite such a menacing situation abroad and, at the same time, such challenging problems at home.
In the last few months the patient work of sixteen years and the slow buildup of confidence that the world's problems can be settled by negotiation has suffered a terrible set-back. In the present delicate situation it would be a great disservice to encourage alarm; just as great a disservice as it would be not to face up to the grave and imminent dangers which surround us with all the calm and resourcefulness at our command. Meanwhile, the years of social experiment and of trials and errors in our industrial and economic affairs since the war have bestowed great benefits on our people, but it is clearer than ever that we still have not found acceptable solutions to some of the central problems of managing a modern, free society.
In expressing thanks to Her Majesty, on behalf of your Lordships, for the most gracious Speech, it is my great privilege and humble duty to pay our tribute of admiration and gratitude to Her Majesty. It is a constant source of strength and inspiration to the peoples of this country and throughout the Commonwealth that Her Majesty sets so high an example of devotion to duty, coupled with perfect grace and great understanding. We are indeed fortunate that His Royal Highness Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh, so ably assists Her Majesty in carrying the burden of so many and varied responsibilities. I should also like to pay tribute, on your Lordships' behalf, to the other Members of the Royal Family, who so unselfishly

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support Her Majesty, and for the constant service they render to us all. And I would mention especially Her Royal Highness Princess Alexandra, who at this moment is on her way to South-East Asia and the Far East to represent Her Majesty.
The outstanding success of Her Majesty's visits to India and Pakistan is still fresh in our memories and is a matter of very great pride to us in this unsettled world. Of no less importance were Her Majesty's visits to Iran, Nepal, Turkey and Italy. Our loyal and heartfelt good wishes will go with her when she leaves our shores next month on yet another journey, this time to visit the rapidly developing and changing countries of West Africa.
The gracious Speech reaffirms Her Majesty's Government's resolute support for the United Nations. Your Lordships were recalled from the Summer Recess earlier than anticipated in order to debate the international situation. Even in this fast-changing world it is a little soon, only fourteen days later, to return to that subject in detail. However, I feel that the graveness of the situation is a sufficient excuse for me to mention this afternoon some of the more vital issues referred to in the gracious Speech.
Nothing could be of greater importance than our unwavering support for the United Nations. The world is becoming divided into two great opposing ideologies. As yet, not everyone is committed, and the United Nations provides a neutral ground and meeting place between East and West, and possibly even a base for effective action. The collapse of the United Nations would be a blow to peace. It would remove the forum in which disputes might be settled by negotiation; it would result in a split of the world into rival camps and put the clock back to 1945. In spite of its imperfections and difficulties, we must continue our support of the United Nations Organisation. If we can patiently strengthen the Organisation, and help to build up a truly international and impartial Civil Service, it will in the long run be of great service to the world. It is comforting to know that the President of the United States is as determined as are Her Majesty's Government that the United Nations should be preserved.
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The improvement of relations between East and West remains the primary object of foreign policy. In recent years, in common with many other people, I have become more and more hopeful that we could reach an understanding with Soviet Russia to develop a modus vivendi and possibly avoid the outbreak of a third world war. One cherished hopes that, with the greater freedom for the exchange of ideas, and with the changes inside the Soviet Union, which appeared to be for the better, it was possible that the Russians would to some extent modify their own policies. The progress at Geneva towards a treaty on nuclear tests, and the agreement between the United States and the Soviet Union on the basis for a disarmament treaty seemed promising. So much so that I, for one, was beginning to become a little impatient with 'the apparently unyielding attitude of the West on certain matters, feeling that it might be worth giving a little ground here and there to show incontrovertibly that we had no aggressive intentions, and to test further the sincerity of the other side.
All such hopes and desires have been completely shattered by the recent chain of nuclear explosions, producing fall-out all over the world. This blatant demonstration of double-dealing has shocked the world. As your Lordships know, only yesterday the Russians set off another monstrous explosion in the atmosphere, which appears to have been of the order of 70 megatons. This recent series of Russian explosions must have by now doubled the amount of radioactive fall-out in the atmosphere which was present as a result of all previous tests, including the Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombs. This vile act was committed in contemptuous violation of a Resolution of the United Nations which was carried by 75 votes to only 10, representing the Soviet bloc, only six days ago. When other countries are standing ready to sign a treaty immediately to stop these tests, what possible purpose have the Soviet Union in perpetrating this dreadful and barbaric act? One conclusion, at least, is that their aggressive plan may well include the use of this terrible weapon to achieve their declared intention of conquering the world.
It is a terrible admission that so many years after the drafting of the United

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Nations Charter the world is completely divided. But it is not the Charter which needs revising; it is the aggressive policy of the Eastern bloc which must be revised before there can be any hope of genuine international co-operation or disarmament. So we have been driven back once again to the age-old method of keeping the peace by the balance of power. The balance of power has kept the peace since the war, and it keeps the peace to-day. But we must not, and cannot, abandon our efforts to reach peace and disarmament by agreement. Great patience has produced worthwhile results in the Far East in Laos, and there is no doubt that even the Berlin crisis, the nuclear test ban itself, in spite of recent setbacks, and disarmament are all capable of agreement by negotiation. But we must negotiate from strength. We must never compromise our principles; we must always retain our ability of massive retaliation against a surprise attack, and be prepared to oppose Communism wherever it appears.
But, my Lords, before risking bringing down upon ourselves and other people the horror of all-out nuclear war, or allowing our way of life to be slowly eroded away by the Communists, we owe it to ourselves and to future generations that we should examine our own record and our own motives to see that we have given a good account of ourselves. My noble friend Lord Avon and my noble Leader recently reminded your Lordships that we are not as yet mobilising the entire strength of the Free World to support our own social systems and economic life. Is it unfair to ask whether one of the main reasons for this is not that many units and countries in the West put their own selfish materialism in front of the cause of common good? When faced with proposals to stabilise commodity prices in the interests of under-developed countries, or to create an international currency or a true international bank, or even when we discuss joining in wider economic associations, are not many of the objections that are put forward based to some extent on our fear of losing some part of our personal power or individual economic advantage?
If our Western way of life, which has such great gifts of spiritual, intellectual and social achievements to bestow
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on future generations, cannot overcome self-interest and prejudice for the sake of the needs of the future, then we may well find that in many areas we shall lose to Communism. Unbridled self-righteousness in our present way of Western life could have in it the seeds of the destruction of our own civilisation, just as easily as the aggressiveness of the East. The closest possible cooperation between the Western Powers, setting aside all prejudices and reservations, is no longer merely a desirable objective but an absolute necessity if we are to survive. I hope that nothing I have said offends against the tradition that the mover of the Motion of an humble Address should avoid controversy.
The gracious Speech tells us that
"Legislation will be proposed giving power to retain for an additional six months certain National Servicemen who are serving full-time, and to recall for a similar period National Servicemen who have a liability to part-time service."
The need to keep efficient, mobile and conventional-type forces to honour our obligations overseas is indisputable, and no doubt Her Majesty's Government's proposals will receive your Lordships' careful attention. I should like to say only that I hope that these needs will be temporary and short-lived, and that we can move towards disarmament on the lines recently proposed by President Kennedy; that eventually such military forces as are required to keep the peace of the world will be vested only in the United Nations, and that the units themselves will have no allegiance to any individual member of that Organisation.
No defence policy and no foreign policy is possible beyond that which we can afford as a result of our efforts in our economic life. I should like, therefore, to turn for a few moments to that part of the gracious Speech which deals with the economic situation. A strong economy and a sound currency are first essentials if we are to continue to play a serious role in the world. But the very high standards of living and the social security 'which we have granted ourselves in recent years have imposed upon us enormous responsibilities, and now demand a greater degree of statesmanship from leaders outside the Government than was ever dreamt of ten or fifteen years ago.

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In the short term, my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer's policy of "pause" seems to be providing the necessary 'breathing space. The slackness in the economy is not serious, and there is no sign of a real business recession. On the contrary, consumption and investment as a whole are both still rising; and with the marked recovery in the United States the immediate outlook for world trade is quite encouraging.
However, it is the long-term outlook for the United Kingdom which really concerns your Lordships most. Indeed, this is a sphere which no doubt will occupy Her Majesty's Government and your Lordships a great deal during this Session of Parliament. The essential ingredients of a satisfactory policy are well known and are summarised in the gracious Speech. It is within the power of Her Majesty's Government to achieve success with some part of this policy, notably to keep overall expenditure within justified limits and within the possibility of our national resources. But the real difficulty comes in preventing incomes from rising faster than national productivity. This cannot be achieved by the simple dictation of the Government, and nor is it the responsibility, as I see it, of any one section of the population alone.
Could we not face up to the fact that collective bargaining for higher incomes by one group in conditions where scarcity exists, immediately followed by demands from others on the grounds of strict comparability that they should have similar increases, causes inflation, and can even be contrary to the interests of the particular people it is designed to protect? Is it not possible to discard some of the out-dated and outworn practices on both sides of industry, while retaining the best of our existing systems? Equally, can we not now explore once again the apparent inconsistency of seeking restraint from wage and salary earners unless and until a satisfactory and acceptable restraint is designed for dividends and other forms of profit realised in business?
Time is short. Her Majesty's Government must certainly provide not only leadership, but inspiring leadership. And leaders of all sections of the community outside the Government will
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have to co-operate and display a high degree of statesmanship if a solution is to be found. There is every reason to have faith in the competitiveness and the ability of British industry. Our best is second to none. A great deal of our industry requires only marginal improvements to compete with the rest of the world, and the really weak spots which may require drastic action are well within the capacity of this great country to improve. Given the necessary co-operation from all sectors of the economy, I think we can face the future with great confidence. I beg to move.
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty as followeth:
"Most Gracious Sovereign—We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to thank Your Majesty for the most gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament".—(Lord Melchett.)
4.5 p.m.
LORD AMHERST OF HACKNEY: My Lords, I rise to second the Motion so ably moved by my noble friend Lord Melchett. I should first like to thank my noble friend the Leader of the House for the honour he has done me in asking me to second this Motion. Why he has asked so undistinguished a Member of your Lordships' House to perform this exacting task your Lordships, like myself, must be wondering —and I have a horrid feeling that when I sit down your Lordships will be wondering still.
Noble Lords will have heard with pleasure the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce, early this Session, a Bill providing for Tanganyika's independence within the Commonwealth. The manner in which constitutional progress has been achieved in this Trust territory, which is the first of the East African territories to become self-governing, has been most encouraging. It has been distinguished by a complete absence of disorder, and the harmonious relationships which have been maintained between all races and sections of the population are surely an object lesson to other territories in Africa. Much of this is due to the inspiring leadership of Mr. Julius Nyerere, the Prime Minister, who has

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been so successful in establishing confidence that the future of Tanganyika is in good hands.
The gracious Speech also refers to the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce legislation for the independence of Uganda. This has been made possible by the successful conclusion of the recent Lancaster House Conference, the last of a long series presided over by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. Although Uganda has not reached the end of the road, the success of the Lancaster House Conference has brought final independence in view. I think we should remember, with a certain amount of modest pride, that all but 5 per cent. of the 660 million people in the Commonwealth who live in territories that were British are living now in independent territories, and when we have passed this legislation that figure will be further reduced.
I should like now to refer to what I think is one of the most important paragraphs in the gracious Speech: that Her Majesty's Government
"will make every effort to bring to a successful conclusion the negotiations which they are undertaking with the European Economic Community."
The outcome of these negotiations—and I personally hope that they will be successful—will affect the lives and standard of living of everyone in this country for generations to come. By joining, we shall have the opportunity of playing our full part in helping to unite the economies of Europe. It cannot be right when, faced as we are with the great world blocs, Free Europe should be as divided as it is economically. A home market of over 250 million will give us great opportunities to expand our trade and improve our financial strength. The political influence of this country in the world and her position as one of the leading partners in the Commonwealth depends on our being rich. We are the largest generators of capital in the Commonwealth, and it has been calculated that to fulfil our rôle there and in the world we must earn about £500 million more overseas than we are doing now.
The question is where, and how? Our exports to the Commonwealth have fallen by 5 per cent. to 42 per cent. in the last ten years and the trend is continuing—
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this, in spite of the preferences which we enjoy in those markets. Wherever one goes in the Commonwealth one sees new industries growing up. They are all becoming industrial nations. In countries like Australia the industrial growth has been tremendous in the last ten years, and they need to trade more and more with other countries—for instance, with Japan, which takes an increasing amount of Australian exports, particularly of wheat and wool. We, on the other hand, with our increasing agricultural production, can take, with the best will in the world, only a limited amount of the foodstuffs that they wish to sell. But, if by joining the Common Market we become more prosperous, there is no reason why we should not do an even greater trade with the Commonwealth than we are doing to-day. There are obviously also immense markets in the Commonwealth countries of Africa and Asia, but they have at the moment great problems—particularly of how to feed their rapidly growing populations; and they have other problems to solve before they can become a large market for consumer goods. It is difficult to sell a washing machine or television set to a man who has not enough to eat.
But there will be great dangers too. We shall have to meet more intense competition at home both in industry and in agriculture, about which I shall have a word to say later on. But most of the difficulties are there already. We cannot isolate ourselves from world competition. But, in the meantime, we must do all we can to make ourselves more competitive. If we are to compete successfully, one of the essentials is an efficient transport system; and I think it is now recognised that the British Transport Commission were set an impossible task. There is need to reorganise the structure of the nationalised transport undertakings and to reconstruct their finances. The managements must be given clearly defined tasks and reasonable freedom to compete. The heart of the problem is in the railways. Their mounting deficits have shown clearly the need for changes, which the Government envisage, and for early and effective action to be taken to deal with the present serious situation.
Much has been done in the field of modernisation. Liverpool Street Station

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on a winter's evening is no longer like a scene from Dante's Inferno—all fire, smoke and brimstone. Now only diesel and electric trains use it. It used to be said, perhaps unjustly, that East Anglia was cut off from the rest of England, first by the marshes—we all remember stories of Hereward the Wake—and, later, by the Great Eastern Railway. Now it has some of the fastest trains in the country. But there will have to be further streamlining. Lines which were necessary in the days of the dog-cart are often unnecessary now. I am glad that legislation is to be introduced to ensure the orderly development of pipelines. Although there are as yet few private pipelines in the country, they are greatly used both in the United States and in Europe for carrying all types of liquids and gases. They are a form of transport which will increase in the future and which will help to provide cheap transport and keep down our costs of production.
I am sure that your Lordships will welcome the paragraph in the gracious Speech which reaffirms the Government's intention to maintain a stable and efficient agriculture. It is particularly important in view of the negotiations which are going on with the European Economic Community and which have caused some uneasiness among some farmers. Those who work on the land play a very important part in the national economy. The total investment in land and buildings alone is at least £2,000 million. This excludes about another £1,800 million of tenants' capital. It has been estimated that the 70 per cent. increase in production since the war is worth some £300 million. It is difficult to calculate exactly the contribution to the balance of payments, because, obviously, if there is a big change in home production it will affect the prices of imports, but it must be a very considerable contribution indeed. It is the basis for a flourishing export trade in agricultural machinery, worth last year some £127 million, and three-quarters of all the tractors produced were exported. British agriculture is efficient and highly mechanised and increased production has been achieved with a far smaller number of men. No industry which is not prosperous can renew its equipment and keep itself up to date.
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Obviously, in the negotiations which are taking place for a Common Market agricultural policy there must be give and take, and it is a good thing that we shall be in a position to help to formulate that policy. But I do not think we need to be despondent, because we are negotiating from a position of considerable strength. At the moment we do export a certain amount. We have some of the finest beef cattle in the world; and I do not see why after death some of them should not find their way to the Champs-Elysées.
There is a lot more important legislation referred to in the gracious Speech. We usually have a Bill about white fish but this time, for a change, we are to have a Bill about pink fish: we are going to be asked to legislate to control the drift-netting of salmon. I had always thought that this was a fairly straightforward problem, but, without going too deeply into the sexual habits of the salmon, if the salmon did not get up the river to spawn, the young fish could not go down to the sea, and if too few fish went up it would not be in the best interests of those who catch their fish by rod and line, or the commercial fishermen, or ultimately, of the people who catch them in the drift nets. But I understand it is a very much more complicated problem than that and involves all sorts of problems of law on the high seas. There is to be much useful legislation in the social field and we shall welcome again as an old friend the Bill to reduce accidents on the road. There is also to be a Bill to alter the licensing laws in Scotland. Even my worst enemies would not like me to dare to comment on that!
But before I sit down I would mention one other paragraph in the gracious Speech, that is the one to control Commonwealth immigration. I think this is a measure the necessity of which we all regret. We have for so long had an open door and have benefited greatly from it. We are almost the only, if not the only, country in the world which does not control all immigration. I think that perhaps the extraordinary thing is not that we are now taking powers to control it but that we have not had to take them in the past. We have needed immigrants in the past, and we shall need them in the future; but when a trickle becomes a

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flood it can cause social problems, particularly over housing, which cannot be tolerated.
In conclusion, I should like to say that I believe that the legislation proposed in the gracious Speech will do much to improve our economic position. There is also much legislation for those in the country who are in a less fortunate position, particularly the legislation to set up a Council to train social workers. Much of it is controversial and will keep us extremely busy for the months that lie ahead. But it is important work, and although possibly, if our worst fears are realised and one of these 50-ton bombs explodes, we may feel that perhaps the job has not been worth while perhaps, should the worst occur, the survivors will at least be able to say they have tried to build a society in which men could live a full life in freedom. I beg to thank Her Majesty for her gracious Speech and to second the Motion for the humble Address.
4.22 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, it is a tradition with us that on such an occasion as this the Leader of the Opposition will move the adjournment of the debate on the humble Address so that he may have a real good smack at the matter first thing the next day, and may take the occasion of the Motion for the adjournment to say something to those who have received the confidence of their Leader in the task of moving and seconding the Address.
I noticed with interest that both the performers this afternoon at the commencement of their speeches expressed a vote of "no confidence" in themselves. I do not think that sort of feeling was at all justified by the result. I would go further and say, if I may refer first to the mover of the Motion, that those of us who have been with him in the House in the last few years have observed with great interest and great sympathy the progress he has been constantly making in his statement of his views to this House upon great matters involving industry, commerce, and the social status of the people arising from those matters, often offering very useful suggestions. I think he has completely justified himself in those matters again today.
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It was a great heartening to us, on this side of the House, to see the most progressive line that could come from any Tory being expressed on such an occasion as this. We shall read the speech with very great interest. May I also say to him that those of us, in all Parties in the House, who knew his immediate ancestors so well, recognised in the one that we knew best in our early days—not his early days—Sir Alfred Mond, a great Parliamentary figure and a very great brain in industry and commerce. We knew his father, too, very well indeed, and mourned his early departure, by his death, from public life. He used to sit upon the left when my noble friend Lord Attlee was leading the Opposition—and he used to make some very good speeches. I dare not say in front of the Liberals here whether he was a National Liberal or an Independent Liberal.
The other thing that interests us about the mover this afternoon is that he wears the uniform of the Royal Navy. When you think of it, the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, was a schoolboy when the last great war broke out, and it is something to see him in the uniform in which he really made a start in other directions to serve his country in its great need during the Great War. We congratulate him on being chosen by his Leader for this task to-day, but more especially upon the great skill that he has put into making his speech such a success.
Then I look across at an old friend in the House, the noble Lord, Lord Amherst of Hackney. He could not think what error the Leader of the House might have made to ask him to do such a job as this, and he was afraid of what we should think about him at the end of his speech. But the noble and learned Viscount is more clever than even the noble Lord, Lord Amherst of Hackney, has just indicated. I think he made a master stroke. He chose a real Eastern Counties solid agriculturist to get up and boost the Common Market. What on earth the National Farmers' Union will say after that I just do not know. But the noble Lord did it extremely well. I am going to read his speech with great care before I make any comment on it to-morrow, because this is not the occasion upon which to make a controversial comment.

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We have known the noble Lord, Lord Amherst of Hackney, for years in the House. He is what we in the Opposition call "that likeable chap"; he is very likeable, and always has been. He is a very knowledgeable agriculturist. I have heard him on occasion say quite strong things to the Government, but he always votes for them. And so he has quite rightly earned the confidence of his Leader in being picked for the occasion this afternoon. May I say about the noble Lord's personal record that he deserves our confidence and our praise? His noble companion this afternoon quite clearly, from the record I have looked at, must have had his career of going on to the university disturbed by the ending of his public school career and his going straight into the Forces, and he may not have been able to pick it up afterwards. But when we recall the record of the noble Lord, Lord Amherst of Hackney: public school, university, Household Cavalry, gallant service in the war, landlord and agriculturist—what a great tribute to the Tory tradition! And one always greets him with great friendliness. We thank him so much for the contribution he has made to this debate to-day on the Address from the Throne.
Before I sit down, may I say a further word to the Leader of the House? I understand that my Leader in the other place is asking to-day for the views of the Government about the latest position in regard to fall-out, having regard to the kind of weapon, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, which was exploded yesterday by the U.S.S.R. If it would be convenient for the Leader to give us the same answer in the House some time to-day as may be given in the other place, I should be most grateful.
My Lords, I beg to move that the debate be now adjourned until tomorrow.
Moved, That the debate be adjourned until to-morrow.—(Viscount Alexander of Hillsborough.)
4.30 p.m.
LORD REA: My Lords, in supporting this Motion for the adjournment I should like first of all to associate myself, and my colleagues on these Benches, with the words of respect and admiration, and of congratulation, which
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have been uttered in reference to our gracious Queen and the Royal Family. Divided as we may be in this House on several matters, we are, I think, truly and sincerely at one in our loyalty, and in our hopes and prayers for the wellbeing of the Royal House, whose devoted service has become more and more noteworthy as more and more is demanded of them, and is so freely and generously given by them.
The noble Lord, Lord Melchett, and the noble Lord, Lord Amherst of Hackney, have, I think, acquitted themselves quite remarkably in the honourable and conventional, though difficult, rôle which has been assigned to them to-day. To be uncontroversial without being platitudinous; to be interesting without being indiscreet, to be conservative without labouring any sort of liberal-mindedness, and to be beautiful without being bumptious—these are such near impossibilities that I think they must both be warmly congratulated upon their success and also upon their apparent common ancestry in Agag, Blondin and King Solomon.
There are still many in this Chamber, I think, who remember the able and dynamic personality of the first Lord Melchett and the immense momentum which he gave to industrial science at a time when to-day's over-preoccupation, as one would think, with that branch of knowledge could not possibly have been foreseen. As a humanitarian I am sure that he would have been greatly disturbed by the formidable and threatening uses to which some of these sciences are now being put; but could he have been here to-day he would have been justifiably proud of the thoughtful and pacific and most helpful speech of his grandson, who is one of us, and whom we look upon with friendship and regard.
I had some difficulty in finding some sort of analogy in regard to the noble Lord, Lord Amherst of Hackney, in his honourable rôle to-day. I would just call him Fidus Achates and say that he has again given proof that he holds the attention of your Lordships by his clarity of presentation, by his welcome inclination to concentrate upon matters upon which he is truly an expert; and, if I may say so, by his engaging personality, which undermines all Party

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variances and makes him such a popular Member of your Lordships' House. My Lords, as a political speaker, his single-minded, great confidence in the all-powerful Party which he supports probably bears out his family motto:
"Cor Unum Via Una"
which I think might be translated as:
"A single blast is quite sufficient in a one-way street".
We congratulate the two noble Lords who are, in the words of Thomas Hardy,
"twin halves in one august event",
and would assure them that they have well upheld a long and worthy tradition.
4.33 p.m.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, I rise primarily, at any rate, to thank both the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition and the noble Lord, Lord Rea, who has just resumed his seat, for the happy and generous way in which they have congratulated both my noble friends who have moved and seconded the humble Address. My Lords, both of them did so with a becoming modesty which only added to the charm of their utterance.
My noble friend Lord Melchett, as the noble Viscount reminded us, was wearing the uniform of the air branch of the Royal Navy, the Naval Volunteer Reserve, a uniform which we all honour very much but which I do not think we have seen on any mover of the humble Address, at any rate for some time, which was yet another reason for selecting him for to-day's occasion. We also remember, as both noble Lords have done, his distinguished grandfather, who did so much for British industry and science. I, too, have studied the mottoes of the mover and seconder. I notice that that of my noble friend Lord Melchett is, "Make yourself necessary". I think we can agree that he has made himself very necessary, and has performed a very necessary function this afternoon, both for the Government and for the House, in so well proposing the humble Address. We have known him long as one who has given thoughtful attention
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to economic problems. I should like to congratulate him upon his percipient speech upon that side of the gracious Speech from the Throne, and also for what he said about the international field, particularly when he referred to the failure of the West to co-operate on an adequate scale and to the need for our support for the United Nations Organisation.
My noble friend Lord Amherst of Hackney has been long known to us as a great expert on agriculture, but I think he showed himself this afternoon an expert on a great many other subjects as well. Like the noble Viscount opposite, I welcomed his references to the Common Market and also to the reorganisation of transport, and pipe-lines and his "Pink Fish" Bill, which we shall be debating later. I also share his regret that we shall find it necessary to introduce legislation on the subject of immigration; but I am sure that when the House hears the case deployed, as it will do in due course, it will feel as we do about it.
My Lords, I should also like to associate myself with the loyal expressions towards Her Majesty and the Royal family which fell, I think, from every noble Lord who has spoken. It is something which we in this House feel deeply, and we always like to convey them—and I think always do—on this occasion as part of the Message to the Crown, coming with the humble Address.
My Lords, the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition asked me a question about something which he believes has transpired in another place. I understand that no formal Question was put, as matters turned out, by the Leader of the Opposition in another place to my right honourable friend; and although I have a note of what my right honourable friend intended to say, and may have by now already said, in answer to the Leader of the Opposition in the course of his speech it is most difficult to select a passage which is really suitable for reproduction here. I think the broad position is this. When we discussed the hazards of the bomb a little time ago we went into it rather more deeply than did another place, and my right honourable friend has, in fact,

23
conveyed to another place some technical information which this House has already had from my lips, in answer to various supplementary questions.
But I think I can say this without attempting to reproduce what my right honourable friend said. When the last statement was made I had, in fact, formed a belief, which turned out to be correct, although I was not in a position to say so then; namely, that the bomb we were then discussing was not the one that had been threatened, and although the Medical Research Council's statement was therefore drafted without direct reference to the possibility that a total megatonnage of whatever it may be—70 to 85 megatons—might be the yield from the two bombs together (that, of course, could not be referred to), I think that everything they said then still stands to-day. Of course the fall-out would be greater; but the preparations we have made are, we believe, adequate, and will be the same. We are, of course, monitoring, and we shall publish the results, every week; and more limited sample tests are taken every day on a check basis. We have also worked out a system whereby the plans which we announced can be put into effect in the light of advice by the scientific experts. The fall-out from the latest bomb will come, I suppose, some time between seven and ten days from now. That is when it could be expected; and, of course, the fall-out from the earlier bomb will be noticeable a few days earlier.
I do not think that there is anything more that I can say about it this afternoon. I think it is all something which has struck us with great horror and regret—that this has happened. We intend, as the gracious Speech indicated, to go on trying for an improvement of relations; and we are still ready, despite what has happened, to sign the test-ban Treaty which is ready for signature. If there is any other way in which, in any detail, I could help the noble Viscount—or, indeed, other Members of the House—I should be only too glad to do so, but I do not think that, on that aspect of the matter, there is really anything new that I could tell the House this afternoon.
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Having said that, I should like again to thank both my noble friends for the admirable way in which they have discharged their duties this afternoon, and both noble Lords who have spoken since for the courteous way in which they have congratulated them.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: May I say that I am much obliged for the latter part of the noble Viscount's speech? Perhaps we can raise it again, in private conversation first and then through the usual channels, for discussion later this week or early next week
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: Yes; I shall be very happy to do that.
On Question, Motion agreed to, and debate adjourned accordingly until to-morrow.

CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES
4.43 p.m.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I beg to move that the Lord Merthyr be appointed to take the Chair in all Committees of this House for this Session.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to nemine dissentiente.

JUDICIAL BUSINESS (APPELLATE COMMITTEE)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, I beg to move, That this House, in discharge of its constitutional duty to act as the ultimate appellate tribunal in appeals from England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, orders that two Committees, each of which shall include all Lords qualified under section five of the Appellate Jurisdiction Act, 1876, as amended by any subsequent enactment, be appointed to hear, during the present Session, such appeals as may be referred to them, in order to secure the due expedition of public and judicial business; and that the Committees have leave to report to the House from time to time. My Lords,

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this is the usual traditional Motion, in identical form to that of last Session.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
Committee for the Journals—Appointed.
Appeal Committee— Appointed.
Stoppages in the Streets—Order to prevent, renewed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I beg to move to resolve that whenever during the present Session of Parliament the House stands adjourned, and it appears to the satisfaction of the Lord Chancellor (or, if the Lord Chancellor is absent, to the satisfaction of the Lord Chairman of Committees after consulta-
26
tion with Her Majesty's Government) that the public interest requires that the House should meet at any earlier time during such adjournment, the Lord Chancellor or the Lord Chairman of Committees, as the case may be, may give notice to the Peers that he is so satisfied, and thereupon the House shall meet at the time stated in such Notice, and shall transact its business as if it had been duly adjourned to that time.
My Lords, this also is a regular Resolution.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

ROLL OF THE LORDS
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had prepared a Roll of the Lords.
The same was ordered to lie on the Table, and to be printed.
House adjourned at fourteen minutes before five o'clock.