§ VISCOUNT STUART OF FINDHORNMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper:
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the grave danger being caused to our stocks of salmon in this country by the netting of salmon in waters outside our control whereby thousands of fish have been netted recently in drift nets several miles offshore, and whether they are prepared to take early action either by extending the limit of our territorial waters, as Iceland has done, or by other effective means.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (EARL WALDEGRAVE)My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are aware that during the last two years appreciable numbers of salmon have been caught in drift nets in the high seas outside the 617 three-mile limit off the coast of Northumberland, and particularly off the mouth of the Tweed—where, as a matter of fact, this method of fishing is prohibited by the Tweed Acts up to five miles offshore—and that in the present year this type of fishing has extended to other parts of the sea off the Scottish coast. There is at present no scientific evidence as to whether or not this fishing at its present level is causing damage to salmon stocks, although it is difficult to predict what might happen in the future if such fishing should substantially increase. Her Majesty's Government now have the whole question under close review.
§ VISCOUNT STUART OF FINDHORNMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for his Answer, which does show that the Government have this matter under consideration, may I ask him whether he is aware that in order to be effective action must be taken before the end of the present year?
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, all I can say is that this matter is under urgent review, as my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland said in a reply in another place only three or four days ago.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, arising out of that reply, may I ask the noble Earl whether he is aware that, even if Her Majesty's Government are not sure of the damage this drift net fishing is likely to do to salmon stocks, other people are quite sure that it is very profitable, in that twice the number of boats are operating this year as compared with last year; that there are no restrictions of the close season as to when the fish can be sold; and that it is calculated that some 20,000 fish have been taken off the mouth of the Tweed? If the noble Earl says that the Government are not sure that damage has been done, nobody can be sure that damage has been done until five years from now, and the damage will be irreparable if action is not taken now, even without positive proof, but on the assumption.
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, the Government have no precise records of what numbers of salmon have been taken by drift nets or by any other methods outside territorial waters—that is to say, five 618 miles off the estuary of the Tweed. Until we have some information as to what fish are being caught outside territorial waters—there is ample jurisdiction to control the fishing by drift nets or by other means within territorial waters—it is difficult to say what action should be taken.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that no fish caught outside the territorial limits can be sold in the close season without a certificate of origin, and that some 7,000 salmon have had certificates of origin in January in Billingsgate which proves that that fishing is extensive during the close season outside the limits?
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, I am, of course, aware of the certificates of origin, and that appreciable numbers of fish have been so certified. But the total numbers of salmon marketed run into many hundreds of thousands. It is an appreciable number, but at the moment one would say not a very great number.
§ LORD BOOTHBYMy Lords, in view of the action that has already been taken by the Icelandic Government, and seems likely to be taken by many other Governments in countries fringing the North Sea, I would ask the noble Earl whether Her Majesty's Government will now give urgent consideration to the possibility of giving extra protection to our inshore fishermen generally—not only to salmon fishing but the other inshore fishing—by extending the territorial limits right round the East coast of Scotland, with particular reference to the Moray Firth?
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, the question of extending territorial limits involves far wider issues, as the noble Lord has inferred, than salmon fisheries. It raises general maritime and fishery issues, and Her Majesty's Government are, of course, always keeping the question of extending fishery limits under review, in the light of developments that are taking place throughout the world.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, in view of the correspondence I have had with certain Scotsmen in the last two or three weeks as to what are the territorial limits for Scottish fisheries, may I take it that these are the regular recognised three-mile limits?
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, so far as I am aware, the territorial waters in Scotland are three miles, as they are anywhere else in the United Kingdom. The fishing of the estuary of the Tweed, to which I have referred, is regulated by the Tweed Fisheries Acts, which actually impose a ban on (among other things) drift net fishing up to five miles. But the normal territorial limits in this country are three miles.
§ VISCOUNT STUART OF FINDHORNMy Lords, I do not ask for an answer to this question, but will my noble friend bear in mind that, as with medicine, prevention is to be preferred before death rather than after death?
VISCOUNT ELIBANKMy Lords, could the noble Earl say what precise measures of urgency he is taking in this matter? Is it not, like toxic sprays, a molehill which will develop into a mountain before action is taken?
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, it is difficult to define "urgency" precisely. My right honourable friend is this very afternoon having a meeting with senior officials on this subject. This is a matter that is being treated, as I have said on behalf of my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture, and as the Secretary of State for Scotland said in another place, with urgency.