§ LORD KILLEARNMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majestys' Government:
- (1) How much has been paid out by the Foreign Compensation Commission in the form of interim payments to the owners of (a) Egyptianised property; and (b) sequestrated property;
- (2) How much has been deducted from each of these two sums respectively in repayment of ex gratia loans made before the signature of the Financial Agreement of 1959 with Egypt;
- (3) How much interest up to date has accrued on the £27,500,000 paid by Egypt under the Agreement?]
§ THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE)My Lords, I will deal with the first and second points of the noble Lord's Question together. Up to May 4, the amount paid out by the Foreign Compensation Commission under the relevant Orders in Council in the form of interim payments to claimants in respect of Egyptianised property was £6,127,816 8s. After ex gratia loan deductions amounting to £230,799 8s., the net amounts paid to companies or public firms was £5,411,680 5s. and to private persons £716,136 3s.
The amount paid out to claimants in respect of losses on sequestrated property, and in respect of certain other losses (such as loss of profits or earnings. which for the purposes of Part IV of the Foreign Compensation Order in Council No. 625 of 1959 are reckoned as "property") was £279,515 2s. After ex-gratia loan deductions amounting to £68,610 6s. the net amounts paid to companies or public firms was 225 £171,172 14s., and to private persons £108,342 8s. In answer to the third part of the noble Lord's Question, the gross interest received from the investments of the Egyptian Compensation Fund in the hands of the Commission up to March 31 amounted to £1,407,027.
§ LORD KILLEARNMy Lords, I should first like to thank the noble Marquess very much for his informative and full reply, which we shall find very useful and helpful. He has had the advantage of seeing in advance two supplementaries which I was going to put to him. I am not sure that they have not, to some extent, been answered, but I shall ask them, none the less. The first is this. Arising out of his reply to point one, can we he informed how much was paid out in each category—that is to say, Egyptianised and sequestrated property respectively—to (a) public firms, and (b) private individuals and firms? I rather think the noble Marquess has covered that point.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEYes, I have answered that.
§ LORD KILLEARNI have not got the figures down.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEI think that, when the noble Lord reads the OFFICIAL REPORT, he will see that I have answered that point.
§ Loup KILLEARNThen may I pass on to my second supplementary, to which the same remark applies, I think, to some degree, although again I have not actually seen the noble Marquess's Answer? Arising out of the reply to points two and three—and especially point three, accumulated interest—I would ask how Her Majesty's Government reconcile this with the repayment of the so-called ex gratia loans. Are Her Majesty's Government aware that interest on the £27½ million from Egypt—which is, in effect, the property of the claimants—is building up simultaneously with their (the claimants') being dunned by the Treasury for repayment of the ex gratia loans? And are Her Majesty's Government satisfied that it is in any case fair for the claimants to be called upon to repay the loans which they have been forced to expend in order to live during the four and a half years that have 226 elapsed since they lost their property, through no fault of their own?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEMy Lords, in answer to the second of the noble Lord's supplementary questions, the interest remains in the Compensation Fund for the benefit of the claimants, and the fact that it is accumulating has no connection with the repayment of the loans. All the recipients of ex-gratia loans signed undertakings to repay, and they were informed that they would not be asked to repay anything until they had received some return from Egypt. Payments out of the Egyptian Compensation Fund do, in fact, constitute such a return. I think that that answers the noble Lord's question.
As regards the third and last of the noble Lord's supplementaries, surely we must all agree that a loan is a loan and, by its nature, is repayable. This was made perfectly clear to all claimants from the start. The qualification in their favour is, as I have already said, that nobody is asked to repay anything until he has received something from Egypt—for example, some payment out of the £27. million. Moreover (and I think that noble Lords should take note of this) in cases of very special hardship repayment of an ex-gratia loan is waived completely.
§ LORD KILLEARNMy Lords, again I thank the noble Marquess for his answer, which may convince some but not others, including myself. It seems to me that on this question of interest—while it may not be morally the same thing—on the one hand, they are getting from the Foreign Compensation Commission and on the other hand asked to pay out to the Treasury. I do not want to make a speech—I must not—but when they were given these ex-gratia loans, obviously the recipients had to sign a receipt for repayment at any time. But few people thought (though some may have done so) that Egypt was going to pay up anything at all. However, I admit that it is a moot point, and I thank the noble Marquess.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEMy Lords, I have done my best to give a very full reply to the noble Lord, and I really think that he should be satisfied.
§ LORD KILLEARNMy Lords, I shall read the noble Marquess's Answer with great care and I thank him for it.