§ 3.53 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I think this might be a convenient moment for me to do what I propose to do, which is to read to your Lordships a statement which my right honourable friend the Prime. Minister has now made in another place. The statement is as follows:
"Her Majesty's Government have recently had under review the governmental arrangements for the provision of technical assistance to overseas countries.
"Up till now, requests for technical assistance have been dealt with through different administrative channels, depending on whether they come from one of our dependent territories, or from an independent country of the Commonwealth, or from a foreign country. These arrangements have been adequate in the past, but with the growth in the size and importance of our plans for helping overseas countries with trained men and women, special equipment, and so on, closer 1095 co-ordination is needed. The Government therefore propose to set up a new Department to be called the Department of Technical Cooperation.
The new Department will be in the charge of a Minister. His rank will be equivalent to that of a Minister of State. My noble friend the Foreign Secretary and my right honourable friends the Commonwealth Secretary and the Colonial Secretary will continue to be responsible for matters of general policy, but within these general limits the new Department will take over responsibility for the provision of technical assistance—other than capital projects—which is at present undertaken by the three Overseas Departments.
"It will be concerned with much of the technical assistance provided with the help of the United Kingdom through international organisations, as well as technical assistance given to the recipient countries direct.
"The new Department will, as one of its duties, administer the scheme set out in the White Paper presented to Parliament last October, for the continued employment of overseas officers. It will, however, not be responsible for the transfer, promotion and discipline of members of the Overseas Service in dependent territories; these matters will remain the responsibility of the Colonial Secretary.
"I took the opportunity of the meeting of Commonwealth Prime Ministers to inform them of our proposals.
"I am confident that the creation of this new Department will enable the United Kingdom to meet more readily and effectively the many requests for men as well as for money that come to us from many countries, inside and outside the Commonwealth.
"The legislation necessary to authorise the creation of the new Department and the appointment of its Minister will be introduced at an early date."
My Lords, that is the statement.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELMy Lords, I am speaking on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition, who 1096 asks me to tell your Lordships that he regrets he cannot be here himself. We will, of course, consider very carefully this statement, and there will be an opportunity for us to express our considered views when the legislation to which the noble Viscount refers is introduced. In the meantime, I think we can say that we certainly welcome any sign that the Government is taking even more seriously its responsibility for providing economic and technical aid for underdeveloped countries. We all hope that this new piece of administrative machinery will, in fact, result in more aid, which is the essential and indispensable criterion by which it will be judged by the underdeveloped countries. We have certain very serious reservations to make about the functions and the powers of the new Minister, and those were mentioned by the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, in a debate on this subject which took place in your Lordships' House last month. I will therefore not repeat them now. I hope that the Government will go ahead and introduce this new piece of legislation as soon as possible and that there will be a minimum of delay.
What I should like to ask the noble Viscount, because I think it is important, is whether the new Minister, who presumably will have his own staff, will have staff transferred to him from the three Departments which now deal with these matters, because if he does not he will really not be in a position to do the work of co-ordination which the Government intend him to do. He will simply be left out in the cold by the three Ministers who are dealing with the matter at this moment. I should like the noble Viscount, if he would, to answer that question.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for his welcome to this statement. The Bill, I hope, may be ready by Easter, but at any rate we are hoping to introduce it at an early date. As regards the last point which the noble Earl has made, primarily the proposals will mean bringing together work done in overseas Departments, and in general the new staff will come from those Departments.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHMy Lords, I am a little intrigued about why it is necessary to create a new 1097 special Minister for this purpose. We shall get too many Ministers if we do not look out, and the independence of Parliament will thereby be impaired. We want the job done; we believe in overseas technical aid and all that, but could the noble Viscount tell us why it is necessary to create a brand new Minister for this, who presumably will be answerable to three other Ministers? Could it not be done by himself, as Lord President or Minister for Science, or by some other appropriate Minister? Is not the Government getting a bit wasteful about creating Ministers, and is it really necessary? I recall that the Labour Government used the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster to look after Germany, but he was in some way responsible to the Foreign Office. If it is a matter of coordination, could it not be done by some existing Minister without creating a new one?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, whether one appoints an existing Minister to a position or not is a matter of appointment. But I should have thought it followed from the fact that you were creating a new Department that, in the ordinary course of events, Parliament would wish to create the office of a Minister to be in charge of it. I do not know whether it would be constitutionally possible to create a Department without doing that. The reasons for the creation of the Department are set out in the statement. It would be open for the noble Lord to criticise any appointment which is made under the new legislation as being unnecesary and as being capable of being made jointly with the holding of another office. But I think that if you are going to make a new Department you must ordinarily create the post of a Minister who is responsible for that Department.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHMy Lords, if—I am giving this only as an illustration—the Prime Minister arranged that the noble Viscount himself, as Lord President or Minister for Science, should undertake these coordinating duties, surely that would not require legislation.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMI think, with respect, it would, if there were a new Department with a Vote. But it would he far more convenient to have it with 1098 a Minister, and I think it would probably be necessary.
§ THE EARL OF SWINTONMy Lords, is there not a useful precedent for this? After the First. World War we created a number of credit organisations and so on, and it was then found convenient to have a Secretary for the Department of Overseas Trade who was responsible both to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and to the President of the Board of Trade.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHHe has gone, I think.
§ THE EARL OF SWINTONI dare say, but there may be another person doing the work. It worked for a long time, and extremely well. When you are trying to create an agency (because that is really what this is, as I understand it) in which several senior Ministers will have an interest, I venture to ask whether it is not better to have that agency responsible to those Ministers, as I understand the Minister of State would be, rather than to have some quite senior Minister trying to coordinate his colleagues.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMI would, with respect, agree with my noble friend. I know that this particular Department of Overseas Trade, while it existed, was a precedent which we had in mind when we were considering the best way of doing this. I would go even further. I should be surprised to find that a Department could be created without making a Minister responsible to Parliament for it.
LORD REAMy Lords, would the noble Viscount tell us how this aid will affect such organisations as the Colonial Development Corporation and other similar bodies? Would they come under its aegis or would they go out of business?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I do not think they would go out of business. I think that, in the ordinary course of events, this Department will become responsible to Parliament for their activities.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELMy Lords, I should like further clarification on this point. I thought, from reading the statement—I may he wrong—that the new 1099 Minister would not deal with capital aid, but only with technical aid, and that therefore the Colonial Development Corporation and all forms of investment or grant, whatever shape they may take, would remain as they are at present. I should be obliged if the noble Viscount would look into that matter again.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I certainly will. It may be that I have inadvertently misled the House. If so, I will seek to make the necessary correction.