§ 3.51 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I do not want to intervene in this interesting debate, but I know that some noble Lords would desire the two statements to be made as soon as possible. I am in the hands of the House in this matter, but both my noble friend the First Lord of the Admiralty and I are now in a position to make the statements. I would, therefore, with permission, repeat a statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place relative to the Common Market. The statement is as follows:
"I have informed the House on a number of occasions that we have been in touch for some time in the normal way with other Commonwealth Governments about the problems of the relationship between the United Kingdom and the European Economic Community, and the possible arrangements which might meet the needs of 118 ourselves and our partners in the Commonwealth, as well as in the European Free Trade Association.
"Her Majesty's Government have not reached decisions on this important question. Before doing so, we regard it as essential for there to be further discussions with all the Commonwealth countries. For this purpose. I have proposed to the Prime Ministers of the Commonwealth countries that I should arrange for my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and two other senior Ministers between them to visit Commonwealth capitals in the near future.
"In the light of these consultations and of the discussions which we shall be having with European Free Trade Association Ministers, Her Majesty's Government will further consider their policy. So far, my proposals have been generally welcomed. Arrangements for these visits are in hand, and an announcement about the dates will be made as soon as possible. I hope that it will be possible for a start to be made towards the end of this month."
§ My Lords, that concludes the statement.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount for giving us a copy of the statement before repeating the statement in this House, but I must Say it leaves the Opposition here still unhappy about the situation. The first thing I should like to ask the noble Viscount is whether he could tell us when the invitations were sent to the Commonwealth Premiers about the proposed visit. On what date were they sent? Secondly, I would ask him who are the visiting Ministers to the Commonwealth capitals. We know that the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations is going, but who are the other two? What is their status? With whom are they nominated to negotiate?
The third thing I am concerned about in the statement is this. Apparently, when these conversations—individual conversations—have taken place, from what the Prime Minister says he will proceed, with his Government., to settle their policy. Is there to be no prior consultation to ascertain, on this very difficult and complex matter, the views 119 of Parliament? Are the Cabinet going straight in on these reports to formulate a policy without consultation with the public representatives of the people, in another place as well as in this House, on a matter which has never been officially put before them in any detail whatsoever, either at an election or at any other time? This seems to me the most extraordinary, inadequate and inane statement, on a position as serious as that we are now facing to-day in making up our minds on this matter, that I can remember.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I do not think there has been anything in this statement which really supports the suggestion by the noble Viscount that the Government propose in any way to proceed without consulting Parliament. I do not see how it could be possible to do that. In the first part of his supplementary question the noble Viscount asked about the invitation. What in fact I think he refers to is the proposal made to the Prime Ministers that the Commonwealth Secretary and two other senior Ministers should go there. As regards that, I cannot give him the exact date that this proposal was made. It is, of course, recently, but I cannot give him the exact date. If I had known that he was going to ask for that, I would, of course, have made inquiries. I cannot give the names of the other two senior Ministers yet, but, naturally, they will go as representatives of the Government.
LORD REAMy Lords, may I, from these Benches, also thank the noble Viscount the Leader of the House for the statement, and couple with it a sense of some bewilderment? These negotiations surely must have been proceeding for a very long time. It is over a year ago since I asked in the House what was the attitude of the Government toward Commonwealth interests, and we have had evasive answers most of the time. Surely some knowledge of the attitude of the Commonwealth Ministers is by now known. Are we only now trying to find out what it is, and, if so, is there anything to say that these negotiations may not go on for years and years till we have found out what they think?
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I am sorry the 120 noble Viscount cannot give me the date of the invitation, because it leaves another question in my mind unanswered. Do I understand that the Prime Minister of Canada has accepted this proposed procedure to receive, say, the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations, instead of our acceding to his request for a meeting of the Premiers of the Commonwealth?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, of course my right honourable friend has seen what the Canadian Prime Minister, who has been in touch with the Government throughout, has said. I understand that Mr. Diefenbaker recognised the value of discussions with individual countries because of the pressure of special interests, but he also expressed the view that consideration should be given to collective Ministerial discussion, if necessary by a meeting of Prime Ministers. I feel certain that the best course at this stage is for us to have the individual discussions which my right honourable friend has described; but, of course, that does not rule out the possibility that it will be necessary and proper to arrange for collective discussions In due course. Those two courses are not exclusive. Meanwhile, we feel sure that these visits are the best way to proceed at the present time.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, we are very anxious about this point. I do not gather from the noble Viscount's reply that Mr. Diefenbaker is satisfied in his mind that his proposal is not the better one to make—that we should have a discussion by all the Premiers of the Commonwealth now. I am not satisfied by the nature of the noble Viscount's answer. And I must say that we put to the noble Viscount last week—and perhaps he will keep it in mind—that we want it made perfectly clear (and the last statement made this afternoon is not clear) that we do not think any- thing of this kind should be put finally to the Common Market countries until it has been agreed in a proper conference of Prime Ministers from all the countries of the Commonwealth. We ought to have that pledge and have it now.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, clearly this question of a meeting of the Prime Ministers of the Commonwealth 121 is not a matter either for this country alone or for Mr. Diefenbaker alone to decide. It is something which has to be undertaken after careful consideration. The Prime Ministers of the independent Commonwealth countries are busy and prominent people in the world, and to arrange a meeting of them all at short notice is not by any means a light undertaking. Our view is that the next stage is that which my right honourable friend has described, but, of course, the view which the noble Viscount expressed in the latter part of his supplementary question is one which is widely shared and which obviously will have to be taken into account.
§ THE EARL OF SWINTONMy Lords, I should like to put two questions to the noble Viscount the Leader of the House. The first one is with regard to consultation with the Commonwealth Prime Ministers. Is it not a fact that while Mr. Diefenbaker has said he would like to have a Prime Ministers' Conference now, the Prime Minister of Australia said only this morning that it would be impossible for him to attend a conference for a large number of months? We have been told that we must work out a policy with the Commonwealth. With that, I am fully in agreement. Speaking as a former Commonwealth Secretary, may I ask whether there are not ample precedents for individual consultation? Has it not been a regular and common method to consult with the Prime Ministers and other Ministers in the Commonwealth countries individually, particularly on matters of enormous detail and with a variety of separate interests?
The second question I should like to put to the noble Viscount is a different one. While the Government are making up their minds, we all wish to try to make up ours, but the difficulty is that of having material before us. Would it be possible—and I ask it particularly in view of what was said by the Under-Secretary for the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food earlier to-day—to have a White Paper published which would set out the provisions of the Treaty of Rome and what, following upon the signature of that Treaty, has been done, or has been undertaken to be done, as an agreed programme by the six countries of the Treaty? It may be that that can be found in some Blue 122 Book or Pink Book of some foreign country, but it is very difficult for members of Parliament to get that information. If we could have this information, which does not commit the Government in the least, put in simple language in a White Paper, then I believe that we should all be in a much better position to know what to do in the matter.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I am much obliged to my noble friend for his first supplementary question, with which I am in agreement, although I have not yet seen any public statement by the Prime Minister of Australia. I am very conscious of the need for further information. The Treaty of Rome has been published. I am sorry to say that it is a very large document of nearly 400 pages. Whether it would be possible to summarise it in a White Paper without misleading anybody, I am not sure, but I will certainly convey my noble friend's suggestion to those who will consider it further.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELMy Lords, may I ask the noble and learned Viscount for further elucidation of two points in his reply to my noble Leader, and also ask him, on behalf of the Opposition, to consider very seriously the request made by the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, for more information to be made available to Parliament and the public about the present structure of the European Economic Community and about what has been done since this Community was set up? That is a request which comes from both sides of the House.
The two points about whirl I should like further information are these. Two senior Ministers, the noble Viscount says, are going to visit other Commonwealth countries. Even if he cannot give the names of these Ministers at the moment, does he not agree that they should be members of the Cabinet, because otherwise they would not be familiar with the thought of the Cabinet on this vital matter? My second question is this. Would the noble Viscount not agree that there is some force in the precedent of India, as he will remember, we dealt with first of all by discussions between senior Ministers, followed by a Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference? Would he not agree that unless 123 it should prove that all Commonwealth countries are agreed about the terms and conditions on which the United Kingdom should enter the Common Market—and, as the noble Viscount will realise, agreement is unlikely because the Commonwealth countries have such different interests in the matter—there will be the strongest possible case for a Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference to iron out the differences between the Commonwealth Governments on this matter?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I have already said that I am conscious of the need for more information. I think that the noble Earl slightly underestimates the extreme complexity of the documents and of the structure of the organisations which have been formed under the Treaty of Rome. I am a little doubtful about how easily they can be summarised without misleading. After all, it is the function of public prints to inform the public on a matter so widespread and complex, and I am not sure that the White Paper could do so as effectively; but I will certainly carry the noble Earl's suggestion to my right honourable friend. Obviously, the Ministers to be selected must be agreeable to and able to carry conviction with the countries they visit, and that must be taken into account. As regards the Prime Ministers' Conference, that is not a matter for Her Majesty's Government alone to determine.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, could I ask my noble friend the Leader of the House to clear up one point which seems to me a little ambiguous? In his statement the Prime Minister used the words,
My proposals have been generally welcomed.Do those words refer to the Prime Minister's proposals to the Dominion Premiers or do they refer to the Prime Minister's views of this country's association with the Common Market; because if the former, I can welcome them, but if the latter, they would seem rather to prejudge the views of Parliament.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I do not think that there was any intention to prejudge the view of Parliament. 124 I think it means, in the context, the proposals as regards the future of the discussions which are contained in the statement.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, I thank the noble Viscount.
§ LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCEMy Lords, all the questions that have been asked so far have most properly been related to the question of the Commonwealth countries that will be consulted in this matter. It is also a statement regarding the treatment of members of European countries which form the European Free Trade Association. Do I understand that consultations with them will proceed simultaneously with those with the Commonwealth countries? Further, with regard to that point, will Parliament be informed about the decisions and expressions of opinion of these European countries as we go along?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, as the statement says, we have all along been in consultation with our partners in the European Free Trade Association. I think we should be able to carry this consultation a step further in the conference of members of E.F.T.A. which is taking place in London at ministerial level on June 27 and 28. I am sure that we should wish to inform Parliament, and if the noble Lord desires to put down a Question should we fail to do so, I should be glad to convey that information.
LORD REAMy Lords, the noble Viscount has indicated the difficulty of getting a Conference of Prime Ministers together, and that is appreciated. But it is only fairly recently that we had a Conference of Prime Ministers. Does the noble Viscount really say that this matter was not put to the Commonwealth Prime Ministers at that Conference?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I think the noble Lord will remember that I dealt with that question yesterday in the original statement I made to the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough. The point is that it was not one of the specific matters dealt with formally, but the opportunity was taken to have various private discussions.