HL Deb 24 January 1961 vol 227 cc1103-6
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that the persons who have been convicted of capital murder under Section 5 (1) (a) and (b) of the Homicide Act, 1957, can properly be described as professional criminals.]

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, there is no generally recognised definition of the term "professional criminal". The only tests that can be applied for statistical purposes are those which relate in some way to the individual's known record of offences. Of the 26 persons who have been convicted of capital murder under Section 5 (1) (a) or Section 5 (1) (b) of the Homicide Act, 1957, 21 had previous convictions for offences involving theft or violence; 13 of them had been convicted of such offences on three or more occasions.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Viscount for his Answer. And may I ask whether he is quite happy with a situation in which even five persons who are not classified as "professional criminals" may be hanged in order to discourage those who fall into that category?

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, although, as I told the noble Lady on the occasion of her last Question, it is too early to reach any conclusion on the working of the Act, the figures which I have just given to your Lordships seem to indicate that most of the persons convicted of capital murder, done either in the course or furtherance of theft or by shooting, can properly be described as "professional criminals". The Government, however, made it clear in the course of the debates on the Homicide Bill in 1957 that one of its objects was to deter from carrying firearms not only those who already had substantial criminal records, but also those who were starting on what might be called a professional career of crime. I believe that the figures justify that objective and aim.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, is the noble and learned Viscount aware that the figures he has given indicate, as my noble friend mentioned, that some five persons who had not previously committed a crime and could not therefore be described as criminals, professional or otherwise, have been hanged? Would he deal with that particular point? Because that seems a complete weakness in the present legislation.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, I entirely disagree with the noble Lord. Taking his five cases, I would point out that these persons have been convicted of murder, either in the course of theft or when carrying a gun. I think these circumstances are clear evidence that they are either starting on a career of crime or have already started and been found out for the first time.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, may I ask the noble and learned Viscount whether this applies to the case of a young man in a university who shot a girl and a man, apparently in consequence of some love affair, and who had no previous convictions but who did in fact carry a gun? Is that evidence that he is starting on a career of professional crime?

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, I do not think it is fair for anyone in my position to give a view upon a particular case until he has seen all the facts of the case, and I am afraid I cannot respond to the question

EARL WINTERTON

My Lords, might I ask the noble and learned Viscount whether he is aware that the attitude, though no doubt sincere, of noble Lords and Ladies opposite is not shared by the general public, the vast majority of whom have no sympathy with their views?

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, I think it would be simpler if, instead of answering for everyone else, I answered for myself. My view remains as it was expressed to your Lordships, that this is an essential for the preservation of the minimum law and order in the country.

LORD CONESFORD

My Lords, whether these men can be described as professional criminals or not, is it not also desirable to deter amateurs from committing such murders?

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

That was what I tried to point out: that it is important to deter those who may be embarking on a career of crime. And I point out that that aspect of the matter was made perfectly clear in the speeches, made both in another place and by myself, when the Homicide Bill was discussed.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, with regard to the question of Lord Winterton, is the noble and learned Viscount aware that the views which have been expressed from these Benches are not confined to the Labour Party by any means, either in this House or the other House, and such aspersions as that ought not to be made in your Lordships' House? May I further ask the noble Earl whether he does not consider that, after this very short experience, the Lord Chancellor is probably right not to form a judgment? All the world statistics are against the noble Earl.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, I think we should all agree that this is a subject which cuts right across Party divisions, anti is one upon which we must form our own view. As regards the second part of the question of the noble Viscount who leads the Opposition, it would obviously be unsuitable if I remade to-clay the speech which I had the honour of making to your Lordships four years ago on this subject. But I should like to assure the noble Viscount that all of us who have considered the matter, and a great number of those who share the general view that I have expressed, have given years of study to statistics in all parts of the world before forming our view.