§ 2.35 p.m.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they are taking to ensure that, so far as possible, no person in Great Britain suffering from sickness, ill-health or physical or mental disability fails by reason of old age or ignorance to obtain the appropriate available treatment under the National Health Service.]
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government believe that the services available under the National Health Service are well known and readily accessible. If the noble Lord has any specific suggestions, I will gladly convey them to my right honourable friends.
§ LORD BEVERIDGEMy Lords, may I remind the noble Lord that the Question of my noble friend that he has just 2 answered arises out of the debate on the Health Service charges that we had in this House on February 13 last; that in the debate I devoted one-and-one-third columns of the OFFICIAL REPORT to explaining why I should not vote against Her Majesty's Government and that this statement was welcomed with enthusiasm by the noble Viscount the Leader of the House as saying everything really that he needed to say? But I went on for three and three-quarter columns, just three times as long—
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order, order!
§ LORD BEVERIDGEMay I remind the noble Lord that I went on for three-and three-quarter columns, just three times as long, setting out positive, detailed proposals for carrying out the duty of the State to restore to health, if possible, any sick person who could be restored, irrespective of any question of making them pay anything; and—
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order, order!
§ LORD BEVERIDGEMay I remind the House—
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: No, no.
§ LORD BEVERIDGE—that the noble Viscount the Leader of the House, in a speech of four minutes, said nothing worth saying at all in answer to the three-quarters of my speech; nothing practical in fact? May I ask—
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!
§ LORD BEVERIDGE—Her Majesty's Government, with all the earnestness that 3 I can command, to make good this omission now: to give us, and to give to the sick people, who are waiting eagerly for good news throughout this country—
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order, order!
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM)My Lords, I hope the noble Lord—and I am always glad to hear what he has to say—will find a slightly better interrogative form than: "May I remind the House?"
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, the usual method of obtaining medical treatment of all kinds under the National Health Service is through the family doctor. I should think that that is fairly well known. There are also the home visitors who work under the local health authorities, and they find that people on whom they call have not sought their doctors' advice or assistance, then they will suggest that that should be done or get in touch with the doctors themselves.
§ LORD BEVERIDGEMy Lords, has the noble Lord forgotten every single word that I said of practical proposals on that occasion? I think he has. I am sorry; I must not say that.
§ LORD NEWTONNo, my Lords, I have not forgotten at all what the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge said. I had the honour of following him in the debate and referring precisely (if he will be good enough to look up my speech) to his points. But what I have been trying to do this afternoon is to answer the Question put down by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore.
§ LORD AMULREEMy Lords, may I ask, as a supplementary question, whether the noble Lord is aware that there are a large number of elderly people lying sick in their own homes for whom it is impossible to get a bed in a hospital, and who can die uncomfortably in their own homes?
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, I think it is true, so far as I can discover, that there are sometimes cases of old people living alone who do not seek the treatment which they would be wise to seek. But I am assured that the local authorities and the voluntary bodies which are concerned with old people do 4 their best to prevent situations such as that from arising.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there are many sick, aged and friendless people who do not have home helps? Would he tell the House how he proposes that they should be enabled to get a refund of this extra health charge that they are expected to pay?
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, if the noble Baroness would care to put down a Question in those terms, I will do my best to answer it
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGHMy Lords, may I ask the Minister, with regard to this question of the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, whether a start has not already been made for providing homes, sometimes with a regular warden, for looking after the old people who could not otherwise look after themselves? Can we take it that this policy will be very widely extended?
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord if experience does not show that the particular matter which has been referred to was very much better looked after, with fewer sad cases, when it was organised in parishes; and will Her Majesty's Government consider whether the area is not too large in many cases?
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, I will certainly see that the points which have been made by the noble Viscount and by my noble friend are brought to the attention of my right honourable friend.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that when things were organised by parishes there used to be one doctor for 65,000 people?