DECIMAL COINAGE (Hansard, 23 February 1961)

§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (THE EARL OF DUNDEE)
Not at present, my Lords. But this very important subject is receiving the closest 1103 attention, and I hope that it will be possible for the Government to make a statement later on in the year.

§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE
My Lords, the Government having said during a debate in this House, and in another place, I think, that they desire to hear what the public think about this subject, and bearing in mind that it is not one upon which the public are likely to express themselves, but which is nevertheless very important, will the Government take what steps they can to ascertain the views of leaders of opinion like the Trades Union Congress, the Federation of British Industries and others?

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, as I told my noble friend in our debate last November the opinions of organised bodies like chambers of commerce, local authorities and so on, are heavily in favour of the change. We wanted also to get the opinion of smaller people, such as the man in the street, and the small tradesmen who do not have electronic machines and so on. We have asked for expressions of opinion and representations to be made. We have not so far received very many, but the great majority of those which have been sent either to me or to my right honourable friend are in favour of a decimal currency. I hope that any bodies of opinion, or individuals, who have strong views about retaining our present currency will make representations now, because if they do not it may be too late.

§ LORD LAWSON
My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether he can say what steps the Government are taking to get to know the views of the man in the street, the general population, upon this matter before any steps are taken?

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
That is exactly what we should like to do, my Lords. We have asked, both in your Lordships' House and in another place, that everybody who has any views on this subject and wants them to be considered should express them as soon as possible.

§ LORD LAWSON
But would not the noble Earl agree that it is a very undesirable thing that a great decision upon a matter like this should be taken 1104 to suit the purposes of a very small group of people in comparison to the population?

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, that is exactly why we want to get the individual views of the man in the street, if he has any strong views and is willing to express them. Of course, the kind of thing that often happens is that people will not express their views until a decision has been taken; then they start making protests when it is too late. That is why we are delaying our decision and doing our best to assimilate the views of everybody who has hitherto been inarticulate, as Conservatives often are.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl this question? We have had a very interesting statement. He mentioned that we might have a statement later on in the year. Can the noble Earl give us any indication of when we are likely to have that statement?—because that in itself would give the public an indication of the time they have available for making representations to Her Majesty's Government.

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, "before the end of the year" means any time before January 1, 1962. But I hope that anybody who has representations to make will make them before then. I should like them to be given now, forthwith.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, could the noble Earl give a sort of deadline—say, June 30—up to which representations could be made which would then be considered?

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
No, my Lords, I should prefer to say: make them now, as quickly as you can.

§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER
My Lords, will the noble Earl, before he comes to a decision, take account of the fact that whereas 12 divides by 4, 3 and 2, 10 divides by only 5 and 2?

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Lady was here on November 10 when I took some trouble to point that out in my remarks. I said that it was one of the most ludicrous things of the decimal system that it cannot express the convenient fraction of one-third. But, of course, there are other reasons in favour 1105 of a decimal coinage, and we are considering all the arguments on both sides.

§ LORD HENDERSON
My Lords, in view of the fact that there would be widespread repercussions from a change of this sort, is it the intention of Her Majesty's Government to raise this matter and discuss it at the coming Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference?

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, I should have to ask for notice of that question. I think the noble Lord is probably aware that most Commonwealth countries either have adopted or are about to adopt a decimal coinage. South Africa has just done so; Australia, I believe, intends to do so in 1963; and I think that New Zealand is considering it, as we are. Of course, the fact that so many Commonwealth countries have adopted it is one of the arguments in favour of our doing the same, but we do want to try to make sure that a change of this kind will be acceptable to the great mass of ordinary people in this country.

§ LORD LAWSON
May I ask the noble Earl if the Government are taking any steps to get to know what is the view of organised working-class opinion in this country, such as the Trades Union Congress? Is there any evidence to be given by these people?

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, I will certainly see whether it is possible to get any specific views from the Trades Union Congress. They may have given their views already; I am not sure. I cannot answer that question off-hand; but certainly I think the noble Lord's suggestion that they should be consulted is a good one.

§ LORD LAWSON
Is the noble Earl aware that any decision upon this matter, taken quickly, might easily lead to great upsets in the industrial world; and that if the view is held by the great mass of workers that a few experts in finance, and probably in business, are responsible for this it may have very grave repercussions upon the country?

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
The noble Lord's opinions are exactly the kind of opinions which we should like to be more universally and forcefully expressed—not because we want an excuse for doing nothing, but because we really do want 1106 to hear the opinions of those who have hitherto been inarticulate on this subject. I would remind the noble Lord that if we are going to make a change it ought to be made soon; because the longer we delay in making it the more expensive it will be.

§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that it is not that a limited number of business and other people want to see this change brought about for their own interests or for their own selfish desires, but that they believe that the man in the street, the woman in the street, the child in the school, and all posterity, will gain by the adoption of a modern tool instead of a very old-fashioned one?

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
In reply to that, I would repeat that all the expressions of 'opinion we have so far received, whether from corporate bodies or individuals, have been, by a very large majority, in favour of making this change; but we want to make sure that those Who have hitherto been inarticulate will have an opportunity of making their views known before any decision is taken.

§ LORD TAYLOR
My Lords, is it not one of the problems in enabling the inarticulate to be articulate that they need something concrete to look at in the way of a proposal which would mean something to them in their ordinary terms of money? If it is a matter of having ten pennies to the shilling, that is something they can appreciate, whereas it is much harder for them to issue an opinion on an abstract conception such as the decimal coinage.

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
But they could issue an opinion in favour or against a decimal coinage.

§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILL
As the noble Earl has expressed his desire to know the views of the country, is he considering some form of Gallup Poll?

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
No, my Lords; I do not think it would be practicable to ascertain opinion in that way. Bat anybody who either expresses his or her own views or gets other people to express their views on this question will, I think, be doing a service to the Government.

§ LORD TAYLOR
My Lords, would it not be practicable—

§ THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (LORD MILLS)
My Lords, is it appropriate to take this matter any further by question and answer? I suggest that, if your Lordships wish to debate it, a Motion should be put down in the ordinary way as a subject for debate.