§ 2.52 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGHMy Lords, may I put a Question of which I have given Private Notice—namely,
§ "To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have any statement to make on the talks between the Congo Government and Mr. Tshombe."
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, as your Lordships will be aware, on December 12 Her Majesty's Government sent a message to the Acting Secretary-General of the United Nations calling for a cease-fire in order to create the conditions in which in a united Congo a peaceful and just basis for co-operation might be negotiated. I am happy to say that as a result of very close co-operation between the Governments most directly concerned and Her Majesty's Government, and by proceeding in concert with the Secretariat of the United Nations it has been possible to achieve both our objectives of a de facto cease-fire and talks between Mr. Adoula and Mr. Tshombe.
From the moment that Mr. Tshombe left Elisabethville on December 18, at which time he called upon his own troops to stop fighting, the United Nations forces have also called a halt to military operations. This will continue so long as the talks are in progress. There have been some incidents since that time resulting, I understand, from sniping at United Nations forces. Talks at Kitona between Mr. Adoula and Mr. Tshombe began yesterday and I am awaiting reports from Her Majesty's Ambassador at Leopoldville on their progress. The important thing is that a real attempt is being made to solve the Congo problem by peaceful negotiation and not by fighting.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGHMy Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Earl for his Answer, and we are all happy, of course, that certain events have led to the talks which are now going on and that a cease-fire is practically existing. But I must say I am surprised at the terms of the first part of the Answer of the noble Earl. It looks as if Her Majesty's Government are claiming a large share of 734 the responsibility for the present happy position, and I find that very difficult to follow. Perhaps he would not mind explaining a little how the terms of the Answer were arrived at, starting with December 12. Because, if my recollection is right, when the Government made representations for a cease-fire this was rejected by the United Nations and also by the State Department in America at the time on the grounds that the United Nations must first obtain their objectives and that these objectives were actually achieved. Surely, the fact of Mr. Tshombe's own representations to Mr. Kennedy for him to help to arrange a meeting so that there could be talks between himself and Mr. Adoula is the main reason why the talks are taking place. I think it would have been a little happier for the country at large if the facts had been rather differently stated.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, the noble Viscount questioned the accuracy or appropriateness of the opening part of this statement, which perhaps therefore I might read again.
I am happy to say that as a result of very close co-operation between the Governments most directly concerned and Her Majesty's Government, and by proceeding in concert with the Secretariat of the United Nations it has been possible to achieve both our objectives of a de facto cease-fire and talks between Mr. Adoula and Mr. Tshombe.The proposal for a cease-fire was put forward by Her Majesty's Government last week, and we are very glad that those who at first rejected it have now decided that it is a good thing.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGHMy Lords, I really must protest at this extraordinary, deliberate face-saving of Her Majesty's Government, because, in fact, the United Nations and the State Department of the United States said that no such ceasefire could be operated until the United Nations' objectives had been reached; and by December 18 they had been so largely reached that Mr. Tshombe left Elisabethville. Do let us have the facts straight.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, the noble Viscount I think is putting his own interpretation on events.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, I do not know what the minimum objectives referred to were supposed to be, and whether those who referred to them consider they have yet been attained or not. When the noble Viscount asked me about this last week I said that we hoped very much that the attainment of these minimum objectives would not involve heavy street fighting and heavy civilian casualties in Elisabethville, which, as I pointed out, might make it impossible for a peaceful solution ever to be achieved; and I would still repeat that. I hope that fighting will not be resumed because there are many people who think that the minimum objectives have not been achieved. We think that the fighting should be stopped and that peaceful negotiations should proceed.
My Lords, in view of the great difficulty of these negotiations I would rather not say anything now which might prejudice their course. We are all hoping and praying—we have had so many meetings in the past which have not led to a peaceful result. We hope most earnestly that this meeting may do so.
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, we all echo the hopes that the noble Earl has expressed and we are not saying anything or desiring to do anything which would have any prejudicial effect upon the discussions. What my noble Leader raised was the accuracy of the historical set-out which began this statement; and, as he pointed out, it is quite correct that their suggestion was rejected by the United States and rejected by the Secretary-General. and the rejection was confirmed by the 19-Power Advisory Committee. That ended the matter so far as the British call for a cease fire was concerned. What happened then in the light of the achievement, or the near achievement, of the United Nations minimum objectives, of which the noble Earl says he does not understand? I understand that they were opening the lines of communications and protecting United Nations' personnel in Elisabethville. That they have done, and at that point Mr. Tshombe indicated that President Kennedy could invoke his good offices to mediate between the warring parties. That took place and, as a result of that, the negotiations, or the discussions—I only think of them 736 as discussions, not negotiations—are at the moment taking place. We think that it is not quite right to present the facts in the way in which the noble Earl has done.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, I cannot altogether accept the gloss which the noble Lord is putting on this matter. If I may refer to another supplementary question which he asked me last week, about the possible rejection of our proposal for a cease-fire, I said that I did not think it likely that it would be directly turned down, though I thought it might be asserted that the time was not yet quite ripe for it; but in our view, the sooner it was done the better. It was only five days, and that is not a very long time for all the machinery involved to work.
Our view has always been that, whatever your minimum objectives may be, it is not a good thing to achieve those objectives by heavy fighting against a hostile population; and we have never made any secret of our belief that the United Nations has been acting upon a mistaken appreciation of the local conditions and strength of feeling in Katanga. What we are trying to do is to save both Katanga and the United Nations from getting involved in a long, bitter, repressive colonial war which would be equally bad for the Congo and for the United Nations itself. We have repeated that over and over again, and that is why we are glad that the proposal—which, I repeat, we were the first to make—for a cease-fire has now been agreed. I do not want to raise any false hopes that this happy event is certain to lead to a satisfactory solution, because we have had so many disappointments before. But we all are hoping that it will.
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, I must say that I think a gloss has been put on the facts, and the gloss has been put by the Government, not by me. I stand by the statement of the specific facts which I made, and I think that the noble Lord is not being quite so frank on the matter as he normally is. I am sure that the whole House is anxious to see a successful outcome of the negotiations, and we all accept the desire to avoid a continued conflict on the lines just mentioned by the noble Earl himself. Nevertheless, I think the fact 737 remains that the United Nations has played a very leading part in bringing the position to what it is at this stage.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, if the noble Lord thinks that a ceasefire would have taken place just the same, even if the British Government had never pressed for it, he is, of course, entitled to that opinion. All I can say is that we have constantly been pressing for it; and not only by one representation: we have been working for it the whole time. We are not concerned with distributing any credit for it; we are concerned with the future peace of the Congo, for which we have always been working, but which, I might remind your Lordships, has not yet been attained. But at least a step has been achieved towards it.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, does it not appear that the Labour Party, for their own good reasons, are fishing in troubled waters and that they are now rather cross because the waters are not so troubled as they were?
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGHMy Lords, I think that remark is not very clever at all. I think I am well enough known in Parliament, after 40 years, not to endeavour to fish in troubled waters on such matters as this. What we are anxious about is that we should keep the proper reputation of this country in that great United Nations Organisation. You do not improve it by attempts at face-saving.
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, are Her Majesty's Government aware that there are many people in the United States who are convinced that the improved and better informed outlook of the State Department results directly from the action of Her Majesty's Government?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the United Nations commander on the spot is reported in to-day's newspapers as saying that Ethiopian troops have achieved all objectives in Elisabethville? In that event, of course, that is the natural end of hostilities and is owed entirely to the United Nations. And let us hope that the present end of hostilities will be a continuous one.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, our belief is that the attainment of certain objectives would not necessarily lead to the end of hostilities in Katanga.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEWhy not! I do not know whether the noble Lord agrees with our appreciation of the situation—I know that some people do not. But our estimate is that popular feeling in Katanga is becoming more and more bitter against interference, and that the longer fighting goes on the more impossible it will be ever to achieve a peaceful solution, let alone to restore orderly government; and that, as I have said, has been our objective all along.
With regard to Lord Stonham's more specific question about what is happening in Elisabethville, our Consul in Elisabethville left with Mr. Tshombe yesterday, and accompanied him to Ndola. He is not taking part in the discussions at Kitona, and I expect that by now he is probably back in Elisabethville. But the result of his temporary absence has been that we have not been receiving full reports about the situation there, and I would rather not make any comment on other reports which we have all seen in the newspapers.
§ THE EARL OF LUCANMy Lords, if that is the case, how is the noble Earl aware that popular opinion in the Katanga is so inflamed that they may break the cease-fire and attack the United Nations?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, that is only one very small possibility; there are many future dangers which are far more extensive than that.