HL Deb 18 December 1961 vol 236 cc501-2
LORD MOLSON

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether overtime pay was given to railwaymen on days when they were deliberately going slow.]

THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM)

My Lords, the British Transport Commission have informed me that the railwaymen who were recently working to rule were paid for overtime actually worked.

LORD MOLSON

My Lords, I am obliged to my noble friend for that Answer. I should like to ask him this further question. Was there some clause in the wage agreement which placed the Transport Commission under an obligation to pay this overtime, or was it done at their discretion?

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, I think the noble Lord will agree that the payment of wages and overtime are matters of management coming within the jurisdiction of the British Transport Commission rather than that of the Government. Accordingly, I cannot give a categorical "Yea" or "Nay" to what the noble Lord has asked, but I should have thought that if a man worked overtime, even if it were as a result of working to rule, his employer could hardly avoid paying him.

LORD MOLSON

My Lords, in view of the fact that the railways are running at a heavy loss and are being subsidised by the taxpayer, is it not really an intolerable state of affairs that when the workers are attempting to bring pressure to bear upon the Transport Commission by working to rule and deliberately going slow, they should be recompensed for working overtime as a result of their action?

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, I can give only my personal view of the matter. I think there has to be a distinction drawn between working very slowly and working to rule. It really seems to me that if men were working to rule—and, as I understand it, in this case a small minority only were working to rule—no offence was committed. No doubt many men who were not working to rule were affected as the system slowed down. It would be extremely difficult to sort out the sheep from the goats, and if overtime were not paid, for whatever reason, a good deal of hardship and unfairness could result.

LORD CONESFORD

My Lords, if working to rule means observing the rules and if observing the rules is demonstrably contrary to the public interest, is it not time tm change the rules?

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, I understand that the British Transport Commission have this matter constantly under review and have had for a good many years. I believe I am right in saying that they have a revision of the rule book very much in mind at the moment.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, would the noble Lord say that the rate at which we work in this House could be regarded as working to rule, and not going slow?

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, it rather depends. There is some variation in what is interpreted as "working to rule".