§ 2.45 p.m.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what reply, if any, they have received from the Secretary-General of the United Nations to the representations and the request for clarification made by them with reference to the supply of bombs to the United Nations for use in Katanga.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF DUNDEE)I am not in a position to make a further statement at the moment but hope to be able to do so to-morrow. Mr. Godber, the Minister of State, and Sir Patrick Dean, our representative at the United Nations, have had further discussions with the Acting Secretary-General, upon which we have received reports.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for the information which he has given, and I shall certainly put the Question tomorrow. But he has not really attempted to answer the Question on the Order Paper, which asks whether the Government have had any reply to the question that was submitted to the Secretary-General. If they have had a reply, what is the reply?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, I think it would be better to wait until we have considered the various communications which are still taking place about this, before making a further statement about it in Parliament.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, I take it from that rather circumlocutory reply that the Government have received replies from the Secretary-General but that they are considering them. If I am right, 322 why cannot the noble Earl say so? I perfectly well understand that replies must be considered before they are disclosed to this House, but is it not a fact that replies have been received and that the Government are considering them and hope to make a statement to-morrow?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, all I mean to imply is that it is not always a very wise thing to butt into the middle of a conversation before it is finished.
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, can the noble Earl say whether any action has been taken with regard to the proposed cease-fire, and whether any further information has been received by Her Majesty's Government about that?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, the approach about the cease-fire, which was decided on by the Government yesterday evening, has not yet had time to encounter any kind of reaction that we know of in the United Nations.
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, arising out of that answer, may I say that I am sure that everybody in all quarters of the House would welcome an effective cease-fire if it could be arranged? May I ask whether, in putting forward this proposal, the Government regard it as an essential step to negotiations for a peaceful or a constitutional settlement in the Congo, and a settlement within the terms of the Security Council's resolutions?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEYes, my Lords. As the House is aware, Her Majesty's Government have always been working actively for conciliation and I think that was made very clear in the statement of Sir Patrick Dean when he explained our abstention on the vote in the Security Council on November 24, with which the noble Lord is no doubt familiar.
§ LORD ROBINSMy Lords, arising out of the noble Earl's reply, he must be aware that the public of Great Britain were informed on the radio this morning that the petition for a cease-fire had been turned down by the United Nations. If that is the case, may I ask him whether Her Majesty's Government do not consider that the time has arrived for them to say that they will no longer support 323 a campaign in Katanga carried out by the mercenaries of the United Nations?
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, might I ask whether the Government rely for their information upon the Press or upon the radio? Surely they have more reliable sources of information than that.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, I have already indicated—and I hoped that noble Lords opposite understood what I meant—that conversations do not proceed at lightning speed or in monosyllabic form between the representatives of different delegations at New York. I think we cannot expect an abrupt, monosyllabic answer, in reply to any proposal or any representation, in an hour or two, or even perhaps in a day or two. In reply to my noble friend, I might perhaps just remind your Lordships of what Sir Patrick Dean said in his statement at the Security Council on November 24, when I happened to be present, because I think that some people are sometimes apt to forget it. He said:
I must make it clear that the continued full support by the United Kingdom of the Congo operation must depend on the skill and wisdom and the conciliatory manner with which the United Nations carries out its mandate.
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, is the noble Earl not in a position to give a direct negative to the question from the noble Lord opposite, that the United Nations have turned down a request for a cease-fire in the Congo?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, I would not anticipate that the United Nations would ever directly and finally turn down a request of that kind. They might tell us that they did not think it was quite possible yet, but I have not any authoritative information about that.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, the noble Earl will not be surprised to hear that I propose to put down a similar question for further information for to-morrow.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, I had hoped that I made that easy in my original Answer, in which I said that I hoped I might be able to say something more to-morrow
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, in view of the supplementary question which was put by the noble Lord opposite, which the noble Earl did not answer fully, may I ask the noble Earl whether he would not agree that the troops in Katanga under the United Nations are regular soldiers of their own countries, that they are serving in Katanga as a contribution by those countries and that they are not mercenaries, as we understand that term?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, I often wish that the word "mercenary" were more exactly defined, to whomever it is applied.
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, while we all wish and hope that the request for a cease-fire will in fact achieve its purpose and that there will be a ceasefire, could the noble Earl assure us that Her Majesty's Government are still as strong and loyal a supporter of the United Nations and of the collective decisions of the United Nations, even though we may not entirely agree with them, as we were when we originally helped to draw up the Charter and became a founder member of the United Nations?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEYes, my Lords; and we think we can help the United Nations by advising them when they are wrong as well as by following them when they are right.
§ LORD LATHAMIn the same way, I suppose, as the Tory Government of the day helped the League of Nations over Abyssinia?
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM)My Lords, I think it would be a pity if we embarked upon a general debate on foreign politics at the moment.