§ 2.48 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the West German Government propose to build 6,000-ton destroyers which would be double the size and tonnage permitted to West Germany under the Treaty of 1954; and whether they have any information as to the proposed armaments of these projected vessels, and whether the matter has yet been considered by the Council of N.A.T.O.]
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEMy Lords, amendment of the provisions of the revised Brussels Treaty of 1954 with regard to the manufacture of certain armaments in the Federal German Republic is a matter for the Council of 751 Western European Union, where certain proposals with regard to the manufacture of German destroyers are under consideration. As discussion in the Council is confidential, I cannot reveal details until a decision has been reached.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, may I say that this is rather disturbing news? I should have thought that already we have lost our place as the principal naval power in the world, but there is no one more experienced than this country in naval matters. I should have thought that this marks an entirely new departure in German naval rearmament. We ourselves have four ships on the First Lord's construction programme: the "London", the "Kent", the "Hampshire" and the "Devonshire". These ships now proposed are certainly going to be no less heavy. Cannot we know to-day whether this means that they are going to be built specially with great speed, of a similar length of 520 feet and a beam of 57 feet, and whether they are going to carry, perhaps, nuclear missiles? Ought we not to know this in the House to-day?
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess whether my noble Leader's question does not indicate that there is to be an alteration of the agreement under the Bonn Conventions? And are we to understand that these Conventions, which were agreed upon some years ago, can be altered without Parliament being informed before the decisions are taken?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEMy Lords, your Lordships know that the Federal German Republic is a full member of the North Atlantic Alliance and of equal status with the United Kingdom, and the rearmament of German forces committed to N.A.T.O. has the full support of Her Majesty's Government because it is necessary for Western defence.
§ LORD HENDERSONBut may I again press this point? Are we to understand that N.A.T.O. decisions can be taken which abrogate the Bonn Conventions without Parliament having any say in the matter or without being informed before decisions are taken?
VISCOUNT ELIBANKMy Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess with regard to what was said about the Bonn Conventions whether the Government have not admitted in reply to me with regard to questions that I have put relating to Herr Alfried Krupp von Bohlen and Halbach that Law 27 of the Bonn Convention is still obligatory upon the Federal Government? Is this not a similar case?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEMy Lords, as I said in my original Answer, this is a matter which is under discussion in the Council of Western European Union. But, of course, if a decision is reached and if Her Majesty's Government agree with it, that decision will be brought to the attention of Parliament.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I must say this is a very extraordinary position altogether. I have put certain naval descriptions of these proposed vessels and I have had no answer as to whether my description is correct or not. I think one might deduce from our own naval documents that that is probably what the Germans are asking for. What has been the advice? Is not Parliament entitled to know? What has been the advice of the Admiralty and Chiefs of Staff to our representative at the N.A.T.O. Council? Are not we to know that? Is not Parliament entitled to know?
§ LORD BIRDWOODMy Lords, I wonder whether I can ask the noble Marquess—
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHI want an answer, please, if I may.
§ LORD BIRDWOODCould I ask—
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHThere will be plenty of time, I think. I want to stick to the point.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEI quite appreciate the point made by the noble Viscount, the Leader of the Opposition. I am not in a position to give a detailed reply to the question but if the noble Viscount so wishes perhaps he would be good enough to put down a special question and I will do my best to see that the answer is provided.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHThe First Lord of the Admiralty is in his place. Cannot he answer? He certainly knows. I must say this is very unsatisfactory. However, I shall return to it.
§ LORD BIRDWOODIn view of the fact that we face to-day an enormous submarine challenge from a potential enemy, should we not be grateful for any naval improvements placed at the disposal of the North Atlantic Treaty Alliance?
VISCOUNT EUBANKMy Lords, is that any reason why Parliament should abdicate its responsibilities in this matter?