HL Deb 12 April 1961 vol 230 cc308-28

5.25 p.m.

Debate resumed.

LORD CITRINE

My Lords, although my name is not down on the list of speakers, I hope, with the indulgence of your Lordships, to be able to make a contribution to this debate. First of all, the debate has emphasised once more the startling fact that there are as many, if not more, fatal accidents in the home as there are on the roads. That, of course, is known to informed people, but it passes almost without comment by the general public. Unfortunately, in treating with accidents in the home we are grappling with an element which is not normally subject to any kind of legislative treatment. As has been stated in the debate, vast numbers—60 per cent., I believe—of the accidents which take place are due to one cause only: falls.

It is rather singular that, if one analyses the accidents in industry, it will be found that the human element is by far the largest single contributor to accidents. In the electricity supply industry, with which I am connected, as your Lordships know, by far the greatest single cause of accidents is falls. I think that, if carried through, an analysis would show that that is not an uncommon factor. The inevitable accompaniment of human activities is carelessness. If we analysed what we do over our waking hours, we should probably find that although we are meticulously careful in the things in which we have been trained in our business, in our domestic life we are not nearly so careful, and that we incur quite a number of unnecessary risks. I noticed confirmation of that in the paper that became available in the Printed Paper Office. This is the Report of the Standing Committee which the noble Lord, Lord Crook, evidently regarded as not moving very fast, as it was published in 1953 and apparently has been reprinted without alteration. The following words occur in paragraph 12: The national domestic heating survey brought to light evidence of fairly widespread neglect of the simplest and most obvious precaution against burning accidents, the fireguard. But precisely that sort of phrase is found in practically every Report that has been issued on the subject of accidents, whether in the home or elsewhere.

I often wonder whether risk-taking is not a natural characteristic in human beings. I have seen men standing in the most precarious situations on the top of a boiler shell 120 feet from the floor of a power station, where only three months before a man was killed in that precise situation. The men standing there had no safeguard whatever. They had no rope, no safety belt and nothing at all to protect them, although those things were available within a few feet of them. I myself actually saw that. So in considering the elimination of accidents, I am afraid we shall have to recognise the fact that there is only a limited sphere in which we can operate. Education and publicity have, quite rightly, been stressed as a means of inducing people to take those simple precautions which would prevent so many of the accidents that now occur.

I, like others, extol the work of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, and for the latest manifestation of the co-operative activity of the First Aid Societies such as the British Red Cross, the Order of St. John and the Order of St. Andrew in the National Campaign which the noble Earl, Lord Woolton, inaugurated quite recently. It is an excellent idea to aim at the standard that there should be in every household at least one person trained and capable of dealing with accidents. I went through a first-aid training myself in the 15rst works in which I ever worked as an adult, and I have tried to keep some contact with the first-aid movement ever since. It is a most valuable thing, and I am proud to say that in the electricity supply industry a very good record of numbers and activities is available.

The one point that has been stressed in the debate is to make apparatus safe. In the electricity industry a great deal of thought, indeed ingenuity, has been devoted to achieving that end. But you cannot make all apparatus foolproof. That has been found many times over. I know that even people in responsible positions can make mistakes. I remem- ber, for example, a power station superintendent, a man of high responsibility, who climbed on a transformer and touched the live side of the circuit. People will take these risks. Although he was acting, as he thought, to deal expeditiously with a certain fault, the net result was that he was badly injured, though fortunately he did not lose his life.

I was most interested in the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Crook, and I thought his speech a most constructive one. I am sorry to say I did not hear the whole of it, but he was good enough to let me look over his notes, and one can see from them the very thorough manner in which he has gone into the subject. Lord Crook, in the course of his speech, dealt with certain hazards which are encountered in the use of electricity. I think the first thing to remember in respect of electricity is that its use is doubling every ten years; indeed, the period is somewhat shorter than that. It follows that with women going out to work, as they do to-day, more or less as the rule—although I am not sure I completely approve of the rule—rather than the exception, it follows that they will rely more and more upon apparatus of one kind and another to do the household chores which normally would be done by hand. So, as electricity happens to be an agency of almost universal application, the use of electricity and electrical appliances becomes more and more general. That is the thing that should be remembered when one is dealing with the absolute numbers of accidents which take place from direct electrical causes.

For example, twice during the course of the debate I have heard a reference made to the use of the electric blanket and the hazards that accompany it. That is perfectly true. It cannot be denied that the careless use of electric blankets, badly manufactured blankets in particular, can cause considerable harm. But it is rather singular that the analysis of fatal accidents which has been made by the electrical adviser to the Home Office—a published report, as your Lordships know—shows that only one fatal accident took place last year from the use of an electric blanket. I saw recently at an electrical exhibition, which, as I mentioned in the House on a previous occasion, was the biggest that has been held in this country and the biggest trade fair of its kind in the world, there were on exhibition certain new types of electric blanket. I was assured, not merely by the salesman of the firm concerned but also by those quite qualified to judge, that at least one firm has completely overcome the hazards referred to in the Molony Committee's Report—those hazards of folding the blanket and the blanket getting wet, and, as a consequence, the elements touching one another inside the blanket and so leading to its overheating.

I think the greatest problem we are up against in trying to make the handling of electricity safe for everyone is the handyman. How are we going to stop people doing what seem to them extremely simple electrical jobs? What law can deal with that? Could we have a form of inspection so adequate and widespread that in every home there would be periodical visits, presumably unresented by the occupants—a rather remarkable state of things? Could we have inspection of a character that would materially contribute to unskilled people not being allowed to use electrical apparatus, to install it, alter 'it, repair it, maintain it or whatever may be the case? I regard that as utterly impracticable.

I think most of us, in our way, would indulge in a little of the handyman work in one respect or another. The "Do-it-yourself" sort of campaign is an incentive, and a very good incentive, to people doing for themselves simple jobs instead of bringing in already overemployed people to do it. I, for the life of me, cannot conceive any remedy there. One can go into any Woolworth's stores and see a whole range of electrical appliances, some of them—I would go so far as to say most of them—seeming to be of good manufacture, and small instruction books which can be obtained by anyone, be they male or female, telling them how to do certain electrical jobs. If the instructions were meticulously carried out in every case, perhaps there would be no accidents; but I fear we shall never get rid of the type of fellow who does a thing without bothering to look at any instructions at all, quite confident, until he gets a shock of a severe character, that he knows all about it. That is an ever-present danger which I regard as incapable of elimination.

My noble friend, Lord Crook, asked whether any discussions are taking place with regard to imported appliances which do not conform to the standard colours used on the wires in this country. As your Lordships know, we use red for the so-called positive wire, black for the negative and green for the earth, and anybody who follows that line and connects them to the properly marked terminals incurs no risk. But with foreign apparatus, much of which comes in with quite different colours, as the noble Lord, Lord Stonham and others have said, it is the easiest thing in the world to get the wires wrongly connected, with serious consequences. There is a body called the International Commission on Rules for Electrical Equipment, and consultations are taking place with that body through the appropriate electrical organisation in this country to see whether some measure of standardisation is not possible. One very simple means, a sort of stop-gap arrangement until such time as the colours of covering of the wires of imported appliances can be completely standardised, would be to put a sleeve over them which would be of some undetachable character and would conform to our standard colours. That is one way that has been suggested of dealing with that very troublesome and difficult problem.

I know that there is a general assumption that electricity contributes considerably to the number of accidents, fatal and otherwise, which take place. There are 13¾ million domestic consumers in England and Wales, and if one does a little arithmetic and multiplies that figure by the numbers in the average family, one sees what a large number of people are exposed to the hazard of some kind of electrical accident. Yet it is remarkable that, over a period of ten years, electrical accidents have been less than 1 per cent. of the total of fatal accidents that have taken place. Over a ten-year period the actual number of fatal accidents has been from 40 to 55. That compares with fatal falls, which I referred to a few moments ago, which total 3,400 a year.

A most careful scrutiny is given to accidents, and the numbers are published subsequently in statistical form by the Electrical Adviser to the Home Office and also by the Factory Inspector. I was rather surprised to find that, although the Factory Inspector has no jurisdiction of which I am aware in regard to the home, he includes in his accident statistics a category of accidents which take place in the home. I think there is some room for closer collaboration in regard to, or for simplification of, the statistics published by the respective sources (for instance, the Registrar General and the Chief Inspector of Factories) concerning accidents in the home, and perhaps something may be done in that respect. The number of fatal electrical accidents last year fell to 38. In 1959 there were 78 and in 1960 there were 38, only one of which occurred through an electric blanket. But I know very well that it would be dubious policy to trust to a single year, and to assume, as a consequence, that fatal accidents caused through electricity have fallen by half. Nothing of that kind is in my mind. None the less, it is significant that that reduction took place.

I think there is common agreement—I have here quotations, which I am not going to inflict upon your Lordships, to support the contention—that by far the greatest cause of accidents of an electrical character is not merely carelessness, but grave misuse. I could quote both the Molony Committee's Report and the, Report of the Electrical Adviser to the Home Office in support of that statement; but I do not propose to do so on considerations of time. I am sure that no industry has a higher regard for the safety and the efficiency of its products than has the electricity industry, and I include all its various sections. Time forbids my recounting the many methods which have been tried in order to secure the highest standard of safety as well as efficiency in the use of electrical apparatus. No one can be complacent, even though but a single person is killed; and the last people in the world to feel any measure of complacency are those employed in the electricity supply industry.

The debate has enabled all of us to review a problem which is remote from most people—they scarcely know it exists—and I feel sure that the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, who introduced the debate, will be able to take some comfort from the interest which has been aroused.

5.45 p.m.

EARL BATHURST

My Lords, in the course of the debate this afternoon I am sure all your Lordships were pleased a little earlier on to see our noble friend the Foreign Secretary in his place. No matter what our noble friend or my right honourable friend the Prime Minister may do on visits abroad, the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, has brought us down to bare facts—that 8,000 people or thereabouts, probably more, will lose their lives in the home in the coming year. That needs some thinking about by us all.

Many of your Lordships have given us hard statistics. Behind every set of statistics are tragic and miserable cases of great tragedy. I, too, have any number of statistics. I would agree with the noble Lords, Lord Stonham and Lord Citrine, that it may well be that something in the collection of these statistics and in their presentation needs investigating, and I will certainly look into the difficulties that these statistics present. I want to mention just one more fact which has not so far been mentioned in the course of your Lordships' debate—namely, that 300 children under the age of 5 will die from suffocation caused by foodstuffs of one sort or another, from the bottle, or from the wrong type of food and so forth. Yet a large proportion of these deaths could be prevented.

All your Lordships will be grateful to my noble friend for introducing this debate in your Lordships' House to-day in such a thoughtful, calm and charming manner, as indeed he always does. He always speaks with such knowledge and understanding of everyday affairs as they affect everyday people up and down the country, and I cannot help thinking that probably my noble friend's charming wife had a great deal to do with some of the thoughts which he asked us to consider in the course of his speech. It is indeed fit and right that this debate should be taking place during First Aid Week—a most suitable and fitting occasion. But accidents will happen, as has already been said by many of your Lordships. First Aid Week, and all that first aid involves, may well, as the noble Lord, Lord Taylor said, save life; and it may save some further injury after an accident has happened. But my noble friend and all your Lordships this afternoon are really concerned with the prevention of such accidents in the first place. Therefore, if in any way I do not refer this afternoon to First Aid Week it is not because I wish to minimise its importance. I believe it to be of the greatest importance, as indeed the noble Lord, Lord Citrine, and others have said.

My noble friend also mentioned fireworks. I will say, quite openly, that fireworks are the bane of the Home Office's existence. Year after year consideration has been given to what can be done in regard to fireworks. No one has considered that matter more often than my noble and learned friend who sits upon the Woolsack. I am advised—and I think it is quite true—that unless fireworks are banned altogether there can be no satisfactory answer. I doubt whether that would be popular; nor does it seem to me reasonable, because, let us remember, the vast majority—I should not like to give a percentage—of fireworks, when let off according to the instructions and by reasonably responsible persons, are perfectly safe.

We must remember, too, that hooligans well over the age of 13 can do just as much damage, both to themselves and to other persons and property, as can small children; and, in any case, small children will probably get hold of dangerous fireworks no matter what my right honourable friend might decree. Nevertheless, every year, before Guy Fawkes night, my right honourable friend seeks, and receives, the co-operation of all bodies of publicity in order to "put over" safety factors and helpful advice with regard to fireworks.

LORD LATHAM

My Lords, perhaps Guy Fawkes really went to the wrong place and should have gone to the Home Office.

EARL BATHURST

My Lords, I will not comment upon the noble Lord's remark, but the Council with which he is so familiar and on which he has done so much have found no solution to the Guy Fawkes problem. Whether Guy Fawkes should have attended on the other side of the river at the same time I will leave the noble Lord to judge. My noble friend also mentioned toys. I am happy to be able to tell him that the British Standards Institution are already meeting this difficulty and have set up a Committee to consider whether a British Standard can be introduced for toys; and they are receiving the full help and co-operation of manufacturers. I believe that that will go a long way to solving some of the problems that have been mentioned.

It has been said that prevention is the best cure for accidents that take place in the home, and there is no doubt that an enormous percentage of them are caused by negligence, carelessness and ignorance. On that point, I would support what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, rather than what the noble Lord, Lord. Stonham, has said; but I shall return to that in a moment. I suppose that every household in the country is carrying out spring-cleaning at this time of the year. I wonder whether we could not go back to our homes and look round during the course of the spring-cleaning that is going on. I am certainly going to do so in this coming week-end, and I ask people up and down the country to do the same thing—to do it now, next week-end—to carry out a home-safety week-end, to have a look round to see whether there are any of these terrible and dangerous deathtraps, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, and many others, to which I shall refer again. I think it will be surprising how many can be remedied quite quickly and, in the majority of cases, quite cheaply. I will return to that thought in the last part of my speech.

The noble Lord, Lord Crook, showed us a medicine bottle filled with coloured pills of one kind and another. Those pills are coloured, of course, for the very purpose of safety. I will ask my right honourable friend what is his opinion about multi-coloured pills, but I am quite certain that we can take to heart what the noble Lord said, and clear them out from the medicine cupboard when they are no longer being used, especially when they are of the colour of those in that frightening-looking bottle he had. All of your Lordships have said that falls represent the largest single group of accidents in the home, and that is quite true—to the tune of something like 3,900. I am informed that falls on the flat are the most serious which are suffered by old people, and no fewer than 1,200 of the cases involving falls which I have mentioned were falls by old people on the flat. Then there is another category—falls on the stairs.

LORD LATHAM

It is a question of learning to be bi-pedal.

EARL BATHURST

Possibly. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, will agree with me that there are causes in the brain for these terribly serious falls. The brain works in exactly the same way as a computer. God gave us a brain to make the kind of transactions computers make. In fact, the brain does that much better than the computers which are used in national banks, which cannot even give one a clear statement. Our sense of balance comes from the brain, through sounds transmitted from the ears, the muscles in the skin, the senses of the skin, the muscles at the back of the neck, and the soles of the feet. All these things enable us to keep a balance. As a person gets older, one or more of those senses gradually fails, and that must be a cause of this very remarkable increase in falls by old people. As I believe the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, has said, we are preventing many deaths from disease and other causes, but now it is the turn of accidents to take their toll.

After falls, burns are the most serious and most tragic cause of deaths in the home, and the noble Lords, Lord Taylor and Lord Auckland, have told us how many patients are admitted to the hospital each year and of the great expense to which the National Health Service must be put in curing these tragic, often extremely serious, burns. My noble friend Lord Auckland has said that burning clothing causes 80 per cent. of deaths from burning, and obviously there must be particular factors causing clothes to ignite: the weight, fineness and type, and the design of the dress. Design must be a most important factor in relation to clothing catching fire. For these very reasons four timers as many women die through their clothing catching fire as do men, and one cannot but think seriously about these lovely, swirling dresses which are so much in fashion in this present season, made of the most beautiful flimsy materials; for they nearly explode if they are caught by a naked flame. I hope that those who wear these lovely dresses will remember that when they go out on festive occasions.

Your Lordships will not expect me to seek to dictate what our womenfolk are to wear, as fashions, from one season to the next, but Mr. Dimbleby gave on television a demonstration, which has already been mentioned (I think by my noble friend, Lord Auckland), of various materials catching fire. That was in connection with the fireguard campaign of two or three years ago. The demonstration he gave is remembered up and down the country, and I hope that more and more people will ponder upon it when they are wearing such dresses. The flame-resistant material, about which so much comment was made by my noble friend Lord Auckland, and the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, is certainly advancing, and we must all congratulate the Proban Company, and British Nylon Spinners, for the great work they are doing. A nightdress that is made of flame-resistant material will, it is true, cost more than one of ordinary material by about the price of a packet of cigarettes; but I do beg of mothers and those who buy such nightclothes to consider whether a life is not worth more than the 4s. My noble friend Lord Auckland and the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, were keen that there should be some method of subsidising these particular articles that may be made flameproof.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, will the noble Earl allow me to intervene? I did not suggest subsidising. I suggested increased grants to the British Standards Institution, and bodies of that kind, for setting up standards. I said categorically that, so far as children's nightclothes are concerned, I hope that when the Bill becomes an Act the Home Secretary will lay a regulation prohibiting the manufacture of children's nightwear from other than non-inflammable material.

EARL, BATHURST

My Lords, I am sorry. I thought that the noble Lord opposite was associated with my noble friend, because my noble friend definitely said that he would have liked to see some sort of subsidy for the efforts which firms are making in order to fireproof materials. I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, was associated with that view. But I am coming to his point in just a moment.

We do not feel that it is the Government's job to spend the taxpayer's money in this manner. We believe that it is up to the producers of the materials themselves. Let us hope that, as science advances, there will be great and rich rewards for them, not only in this country but all over the world, when these materials really are at a stage of sufficient fireproof standard. I think it would be an almost impossible task for Her Majesty's Government to decide, first, what was a standard suitable to be subsidised and which firms, as against other firms, should receive such a subsidy or assistance. That does not mean to say that we do not wish to congratulate those firms that are doing such great work.

LORD AUCKLAND

My Lords, may I interrupt my noble friend for just a moment? What I was really trying to suggest as regards Proban was not so much a Government subsidy. If the Minister for Science, who I believe controls the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, could afford facilities for that particular branch of work it would be of assistance—not only to Proban but to any other firms which have helped in this flameproofing. I Should like them to afford advice, facilities, consultation and, if necessary, finance for their work. I was not meaning to ask far a subsidy as such. I am sorry if I did not make myself quite clear there.

EARL BATHURST

My Lords, I appreciate what my noble friend says. I do not know what the position of the Minister for Science would be. I suspect that there is a queue for the sort of help which the noble Lord would like to see. But if he would ask his friends to put that on a piece of paper and send it to me I will certainly ask my noble friend what his reaction would be.

The noble Lord, Lord Stonham, mentioned the Consumer Protection Bill. Indeed, that will give power to my right honourable friend not only to ban certain materials but, I understand, to ban an actual article. Many people say that children should wear pyjamas—indeed, that is what the noble Lord, Lord Crook, said. I certainly do not know whether my right honourable friend could possibly make such a regulation, but I, for one, should like to see, if possible, that if children do have nightdresses they are made from non-inflammable materials. That would be possibly one of the benefits that this Bill would give us.

The noble Lord, Lord Crook, criticised Her Majesty's Government for not including that Bill and the Home Safety Bill in the legislative programme, and I can only say that the legislative programme is, as it is at all times, so very full. But I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Crook, and your Lordships that these two Bills will have the full support of Her Majesty's Government. Possibly they may go through faster than they would have done had they been introduced by Her Majesty's Government.

With regard to fires, which my noble friend Lord Auckland told us so much about, there is no doubt that the open fire is the most dangerous of all. I agree with everything that has been said by the noble Lords, Lord Crook and Lord Amulree, with regard to the fixing of fireguards. There was a little confusion there. The Heating Appliances (Fireguards) Act and its regulations affect only electric fires and gas fires and their sales. The fireguards, which were the subject of a "Guard that Fire" Government campaign, are not affected by these regulations, but there are many British standards for them. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Crook: it seems to me extraordinary that one cannot buy a proper fireguard in many of the shops. I will do my best to take up that matter and to make it known to the bodies and authorities concerned. But the old-fashioned Victorian fireguard, standing at about two or three feet, is impossible to find, and surely that must be the safest of all fireguards provided it is fixed to the wall. I should not have thought that any council, or any other prudent landlord, would mind fireguards being fixed to the wall, provided that that were done in a proper manner, with the walls plugged and so forth. But if the noble Lords, Lord Crook or Lord Citrine, can give me any information with regard to councils which refuse to have fireguards fixed to their walls I will, of course, pass that information on to my right honourable friend.

With regard to the regulations, I think we can be pleased that, while in 1951 there were 88 deaths from electric fires, in 1959 there were only 64 deaths, because that must obviously take into consideration the enormous number of extra fires that are being used up and down the country. The figures are good, too, for gas fires.

Then the noble Lords, Lord Amulree and Lord Taylor, drew our attention to poisoning from gas; and this is indeed a most serious and alarming problem. The number has doubled in the last ten years. As the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, indicated to us, 77 per cent. of the people involved are over 60. Surely, that is due to a certain amount of forgetfulness and carelessness, the reasons which Lord Taylor told us about. It is also no doubt probably due to worn-out appliances and to the pipe system in old houses. Let us hope that, as new houses become available, those old gas systems will gradually disappear.

The Gas Board are most concerned and worried over this situation. There are special stoves, and stoves with automatic lighters, which were referred to. But it is a fact that many old people prefer the stove they have and which they have become accustomed to; and it is impossible to make people use the latest and most safe gas stove merely by saying that it is better for them. I can assure your Lordships that wherever gas equipment is thought to be faulty, or is known to be faulty, the Gas Board fitters follow up the faults, on the information they receive, as quickly as is possible.

The noble Lord, Lord Citrine, intervened with regard to electricity, and we are most grateful to him for giving us, as one who has spent a lifetime in that industry, his comments about it. It is quite true that, in spite of this enormous increase in electrical implements, not only fires but implements of all sorts, accidents in the home from electric shocks, or any other damage from electricity, are remarkably few. I think that great credit is due to the appliance makers, to the electrical contractors who fit the electric wiring, and to the Electricity' Boards; and, if I may say so, the noble Lord opposite may take great credit for what the Boards have done.

I can certainly agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, said with regard to elderly mansions. I appreciate the problem there only too well, when an electric system has to be rewired. The noble Lord, Lord Crook, and the noble Lord, Lord Citrine, mentioned the colour code coming in from Europe. I am not quite sure whether they both agree with the colours on the code. It is quite certain that they disagree with the multitude of colours that are used at present. I find it hard to remember which colour one is supposed to attach to which point, and I, for one, would much rather that there were no colours; but that is only a personal opinion. In any case, I would leave all electrical fitting to the man who knows how to do it, and I think I can give no better advice than the advice which was given by my noble friend, and that is: do not fiddle about with your electrical equipment.

Now we come to the work that local authorities are carrying out with regard to home safety. Every year 50,000 people go into hospital as a result of burns and scalds. That was the figure quoted, I think, by the noble Lord, Lord Amulree. My Lords, the cost of healing those injuries is one that should not be necessary at all. The services which local authorities carry out are the provision of clinics and health visitors. That was a particular point brought out by Lord Crook, and I think these people may well be part of the answer to the problem of gas appliances. These visitors from the health clinics are experts with regard to home safety and gas appliances in particular, and there is no doubt that they must be able and are able to solve many of the problems with regard to gas dangers.

Then there are the housing improvement grants which, indirectly, must save a great many accidents every year. As the noble Lord, Lord Crook, said, every house that is modernised with the help of a housing grant is potentially less of a death-trap than it was. Then there is education, which again comes under the local authorities, by propaganda and the school curricula. Home safety comes into that, and all through the curricula of those training in domestic science and in crafts in schools, and in special subjects such as laboratory work and machine-shop work.

At this stage I should like to draw attention to a special pamphlet that has been issued by my right honourable friend to all education authorities. It seems to me to have a wealth of information which every teacher would do well to know about—and I daresay that every teacher has read it. it is a book that is full of information upon the prevention of accidents, not only in the home but also in any institution with which the teacher may be concerned. Then there are the fire prevention officers and their services. They, too, must prevent accidents to an untold number every year as they go about their work. Finally, there are the health services and the committees which run them. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, gave us a preview of his speech in three weeks' time, and I have no doubt that my right honourable friend and my noble friend who will be replying will take good notice of what he was kind enough to say he will be chastising them about in that debate.

My Lords, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents must be the king-pin of accident prevention in the home. This Society, as the noble Lord, Lord Crook, and my noble friend Lord Auckland have told us, is responsible for the branches dealing with accidents in this country. It is a national organisation, and it has had as its President many noble and able Members of your Lordships' House. The present Chairman is Sir Charles Bartlett, who is well known all over the country for the great work he has done in the sphere of accidents. My Lords, ROSPA is completely a voluntary body. The noble Lord, Lord Crook, suggested that not enough money was paid to it by Her Majesty's Government. In fact, it is £1,500 by my right honourable friend in the Home Office and £1,500 by the Secretary of State for Scotland. It is not always true that a voluntary body works best if it has ad lib. subsidies and funds provided from a central source. I ask the noble Lord to bear that in mind. But there is no doubt that ROSPA has a very large circulation of friends and a very large number of subscribers, not only in local authorities and in private individuals but also in businesses.

LORD LATHAM

My Lords, it is the case, I think the noble Earl would agree, that the local authorities contribute very much more than the Government to this Society.

EARL BATHURST

My Lords, that is with regard to the committees, which I am just about to come to. The safety committees set up by the local authorities, with the assistance and guidance of ROSPA, are the people who actually spend the money in their own particular areas. That is probably the best and the fairest way of doing it: that the local ratepayer should have a say in and should contribute to the preventive measures that are going to be taken in his own particular area. That is probably better than having a vast central organisation run by my right honourable friends. In any case, there is no doubt that the work of ROSPA, combined with that of the local authorities and of the local safety committees that they set up, has been magnificent—end who can tell the number of lives and injuries they have saved? I can only commend your Lordships, and the general public, to take an interest in these safety committees, and if any responsible person is able to give service to that committee, or is able to join the local organisation, that would be a tremendous help to safety in his own area.

The noble Lords, Lord Taylor and Lord Stonham, gave a list of various deathtraps that they thought existed in the home. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, mentioned windows and furniture in dangerous places, and the noble Lord, Lord Crook, mentioned "Do-it-yourself" electric blankets. My Lords, I can think of nothing more dangerous or unpleasant than a "Do-it-yourself" electric blanket. I can only advise that no noble Lord should buy such a piece of equipment. Stairs, and toys left by children on the stairs, are one of the most serious causes of accidents. Then there is electrical equipment in the house. It is unbelievable that somebody who has been working with a vacuum cleaner, for instance, for fifteen years should put her finger in it to carry out some minor adjustment before the plug has been pulled out and the machine has had time to stop, risking a very serious accident as a result. As to motor mowers, a person I know has used exactly the same motor mower for fifteen years, and it has been going perfectly; but for some extraordinary reason he put his hand into the blades in order to clean it—cit probably did not need cleaning, in any case— before the blades had actually stopped revolving.

My Lords, one can go on with the list ad infinitum, such as the use of floor polish; and stairs and carpets which have become worn out. All of them are potential death traps in the home. If in this coming week-end we can do something to stop these death traps, many accidents and injuries may be prevented. My noble friend has said that we have not enough publicity or propaganda. He congratulated my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland upon what he was doing in Scotland; and he is quite right. The Secretary of State for Scotland has some very fine accident propaganda and accident literature which has been published, but I should like to assure the noble Lord that all that literature and propaganda, including this design for safety in the home, which was mentioned both by him and by the noble Lord, Lord Croak, is freely available in this country from Her Majesty's Stationery Office, and is in fact published in co-operation with the Home Office. Any local secretary, committee or branch of ROSPA could obtain that information for the noble Lord, should he want it.

The noble Lord, Lord Crook, mentioned the Departmental Committee which meets every quarter, yet he criticised that Committee for not having presented a report since 1953. My Lords, that Committee, as I say, meets every quarter, but it is a fact that, with all the information which is available, we cannot find any new trends. By that, I do not mean ideas for prevention of accidents, but that we cannot find any new information which we think would help if it were published in the form of a report. I can assure noble Lords that I will ask the chairman of that Committee whether he thinks that some form of interim report might be published if that would serve any useful purpose. But that is my information; that the trends have not yet shown themselves. Possibly in another so many years a report should be published.

Both the Home Office and the Secretary of State for Scotland have arranged for films to be shown on B.B.C. Television and on I.T.V., and for sound broadcasting programmes, as often as is feasible. For instance, there were fourteen one-minute broadcasts on specific home danger points in 1960, with scripts provided by the Central Office of Information. They also have five separate films which can be shown at any time either on television or at film shows. I.T.V. showed two Ministry of Health "filler films" (as they are called) which run for about a minute or so at a time which is convenient to the programme, 130 times in the course of 1960. They have already been shown again during this year. We are also in touch with the producers and designers of the current most popular radio and television programmes, and we receive considerable help and support from them. A moment ago I mentioned Mr. Dimbleby, who had brought in home safety points with regard to clothing. There is also the: programme "Dixon of Dock Green", and other favourite programmes have indicated that they will help, and do help? whenever possible.

The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, indicated that the new inventions and gadgets of these days which are in such profusion make the pace of modern life so fast that it really passes some of the ability of the human brain to be able to comprehend the safety measures which are needed. I think the noble Lord most politely said that some people are socially and domestically incompetent—I think that was the noble Lord's phrase. I am afraid that I must say that some people—it does not matter who they are socially—are just careless, ignorant and stupid. I think that is the cause of a large number of accidents. The noble Lord, Lord Stonham, would like us to believe that many more accidents are caused by failure in equipment or in material. There is no doubt that failures of this sort do cause accidents, but I think that the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, and I have the majority of the causes of the avoidable accidents.

The noble Lord, Lord Amulree, mentioned accidents to the old people. We cannot give special advice about such accidents, but I do hope that all families of these old people, when they make visits to them, will pay special attention to their appliances and to the safety of the homes of these old people, as, indeed, do the health visitors whom I have already mentioned. But you just cannot leave the problem of old members of one's family to health visitors; it is a responsibility which devolves on us all.

My Lords, I have said that spring cleaning is going on in our houses all over the country. Next week-end, the last week-end of First Aid Week, can be made a home safety week-end. We will find all these death traps—or a great many of them. There might be a competition run to see how many can be found. As I said, I believe that many of the problems will be much simpler and much easier to remedy than we had ever thought. I do say that all those who have any dealings with publicity, whether in the Press—and there is great publicity given to home safety in the Press—in television, on broadcasting or on films, whether it be straight editorial matter, or in constructing actual programmes, have a great responsibility to bring out these points about safety which your Lordships have mentioned. There are many others upon which ROSPA will be only too pleased to advise, and I hope that they will be able to do so, even more than they do at the present time, to their great credit. I know that all your Lordships would wish to thank my noble friend for bringing this interesting topic before us.

6.28 p.m.

LORD AUCKLAND

My Lords, it is not my intention to make another long speech, but before I ask leave to withdraw the Motion standing in my name it would be ungracious of me if I did not thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. The noble Lord, Lord Crook, has done a tremendous amount in the interests of home safety, and I quite understand the fact that he is not present now, as he had to leave early. I was particularly impressed with his comments regarding these coloured pills which look like "Smarties". That is a point of tremendous importance, and I think something with which parents must deal carefully.

The noble Lord, Lord Amulree, gave a most valuable contribution as a person of experience, particularly with the aged. I should like to stress here that although, for my part, my Motion was concerned primarily with the young, it does regard with great concern the aged. It is only because I come into contact more with the young that I have emphasised that particular section of the community. But, of course, it is the old people who do suffer in large measure these accidents. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, always makes very generous remarks on my behalf. I would only say how extremely grateful I was, and I am sure the House was also, for his contribution on matters of this kind. I would suggest that he probably has no equal. He puts forward his case from his personal experience with tremendous conviction. The noble Lord, Lord Stonham, made a most valuable contribution. He has done great work on hospital committees and I share his view regarding publicity. I welcome the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Citrine, who made a most useful contribution from his great practical knowledge of electricity.

To my noble friend Lord Bathurst, I would say this. I thank him sincerely for the kind remarks he has made about my wife, who has always been a great help to me, both in research for, and in preparation of, speeches for these debates. The noble Earl went to great pains to answer thoroughly every point which was put forward and I should like to express to him and his Department my deep gratitude for the help which they have given. I would also like to thank again Courtauld's, ROSPA and other organisations who, in a short time, rendered most valuable and courteous assistance.

As I said earlier, this is a combined operation, and various suggestions have been made about what the Government could do. I hope that the Home Office and any other relevant Government Departments will take note. The Press, both the popular Press and the more academic Press, do good work, and I should like to pay warm tribute to them for what they have done and for what I hope they will continue to do. Ultimately, however, it is the parents and the schools upon whom the responsibility lies. I did not put down this Motion to beat the Government. All Parties of all colours have contributed a great deal to the question of home safety. I feed that debates of this kind are extremely useful and should be held more frequently. For my part, this has been a very satisfactory debate and I should like to thank heartily all concerned in it and all organisations which have helped. With these words, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.

Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

House adjourned at twenty-seven minutes before seven o'clock.