HL Deb 22 November 1960 vol 226 cc734-6

2.49 p.m.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so I would declare that I am the chairman of a group of hospitals within the region mentioned in the Question.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that in the N.E. Metropolitan Regional Hospitals the total staffs of physiotherapists are 32.7 per cent. and psychiatric social workers 31.4 per cent., below establishment; that there is an almost equally acute shortage of radiographers, pharmacists and almoners; that the position has greatly worsened since the beginning of the year, and what steps they will take to effect an improvement.]

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are aware that many hospital authorities find difficulty in filling their establishments for the classes of staff referred to and that these difficulties are greater in some areas than in others. These professions are in competition with a number of other important professions, both inside and outside the National Health Service, and there are not enough young people of suitable calibre to till all the available posts. For those whose training takes place in National Health Service hospitals, recent figures of student recruitment are encouraging, and where specific difficulties, such as inadequate training facilities, hamper recruitment, Her Majesty's Government are prepared to consider how they can help. Salaries are a matter, in the first instance, for the appropriate National Health Service Whitley Council, but the salaries of all the classes mentioned have been substantially increased in the last two years.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that despite the increased salaries which have been paid, the conditions are now disastrous; that the number of vacancies has increased since the beginning of last year by 50 per cent. in many cases and in some it has doubled, and that unless something very radical is clone to bring about an improvement the Hospital Service is going to be seriously impaired?

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, the noble Lord has great experience of these problems and he knows that it is the responsibility of hospital management committees to recruit their staff. But Her Majesty's Government are only too anxious to help in any way they can to solve these difficulties, and would very much welcome any suggestions. As I said in my earlier Answer, the recruiting figures are now encouraging. I believe the reason for that is that we are now beginning to see the results of the rise in the birth rate which began in 1941 and 1942. But it is true, of course, that the demand for these professions is expanding all the time as hospital facilities expand, and there is competition all the time for suitable people to fill these places.

LORD AMULREE

My Lords, although admittedly there has been some increase in salaries, does not the noble Lord think the salaries should possibly be made more commensurate with what these young girls can get in commerce?

THE EARL OF LUCAN

My Lords, the noble Lord in his first Answer mentioned training within the National Health Service and said the figures were now encouraging; but would be not agree that many of those who get their training in the Health Service afterwards leave for better-paid employment in industry?

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, it is true that there is a good deal of wastage (to use a technical term), but I believe that this is largely because of marriage; and most of the members of the professions mentioned in the noble Lord's Question are, of course, women. As regards salaries, all these five groups have received substantial increases within the last two years, and in respect of none of them, at the moment, is a claim for a general pay increase before the appropriate Whitley Council. The trouble is that if, in due course, their salaries were increased substantially, those salaries would be met and matched by rises in the salaries of some of the other professions which compete for these people.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his second answer to me and for the way he tried to meet the position, but I can assure him that the trouble is not marriage, it is salaries. And although I am aware that this matter cannot be gone into in detail through question and answer I will send him details which have been worked out and particulars of training, and hope that a study of them may bring about some way of helping recruitment. But I feel that the main obstacle is the fact that the Whitley Council machinery has virtually seized up.

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord.

LORD McCORQUODALE OF NEWTON

My Lords, I wonder whether I might suggest that part of the difficulty is the extension of the amount of knowledge that some of these people have to acquire before they get the appropriate degree or qualification, some of which knowledge is of not the slightest use to them after wards. I am sure that a less skilled procedure might lead us to more practical expertise in this matter.

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, I am obliged to my noble friend.