INTELLIGENCE FLIGHTS OVER FOREIGN TERRITORY (Hansard, 12 May 1960)

VISCOUNT STANSGATE
My Lords, by leave of the House and with the consent of the noble Earl the Leader of the House, I beg to ask the following Question by Private Notice:
"Whether Her Majesty's Government accept the policy set out by President Eisenhower as to intelligence flights over foreign territory; whether this policy would affect our duties under treaties of mutual defence, such as N.A.T.O.; and, further, whether Her Majesty's Government would approve the consideration of President Eisenhower's statement by the Security Council."

§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM)
My Lords, your Lordships' House will remember accepting the First Report from the Select Committee on Procedure, which dealt with Private Notice Questions. The relevant recommendation of that Committee was that the decision as to whether a Question is of sufficient urgency to justify an immediate reply should rest in the first place with the Leader of the House and ultimately with the general sense of the House. I felt that I ought to take what advice I could as to whether this was a Question justifying the Private Notice procedure 736 within those words, and I am bound to say that I came to the conclusion that it was not; and if the House would support me, I would ask them to say that, too. On the other hand, in view of the nature of the Question and of the attitude taken by my right honourable friends towards somewhat similar Questions in another place, I felt that perhaps the noble Viscount might have a legitimate sense of grievance if I told him to put the Question down on the Order Paper and then, when he had done so, he got the kind of Answer I expect he would get.
In those circumstances, and without treating this as a proper use of the Private Notice Question Procedure, I thought that perhaps the House would desire me to give the Answer to-day, notwithstanding that it was not a proper Private Notice Question. As I am sure the noble Viscount is well aware, it has long been the accepted practice of successive Governments from both sides of the House that matters relating to intelligence are not discussed in public. Furthermore, I cannot believe that on reflection the noble Viscount would expect me to comment in your Lordships' House on statements made by the Head of the United States Government.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE
My Lords, I pass over the procedural point. I am sure that the House would support the Acting Leader in any action he asked. But my Question is this. Here is a case in which two American planes have been destroyed in what is now really enemy territory. The Government are asked what is their policy in this matter, and they give the reply which has always been given in these matters—namely, that they cannot deal with this private inquiry business at all. That we understand. But there is a vast difference between sending a man to try to collect information in a country and sending an aeroplane, which might be armed, over the other person's country.

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
My Lords, is the noble Viscount asking a supplementary question or making a statement?

VISCOUNT STANSGATE
I am obliged. But this is an important matter—

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
All the more important then to keep in order.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE
If the noble Viscount objects he has the remedy in his own hands, and I will ask him to use it. If he thinks I am going too far he has only to ask the House that I be no longer heard and I shall be stopped. But until that happens I intend to make the point—

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
I would ask the noble Viscount, with respect, whether he intends to ask a question or make a point. If he intends to disregard the Rules of Order of the House and make a point and not ask a question then I shall think of taking the remedy into my hands which he has invited me to do. It is, after all, for Members of the House to observe the Rules of Order of the House. The noble Viscount asked a Question which was out of Order, and I thought I was stretching a point in giving him an Answer. He now, instead of asking a supplementary question, seeks to make a speech to the House, and I shall ask the House not to hear him if he persists.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE
When the noble Viscount sees fit to move that Motion I will accept it. In the meantime—

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
I beg to move that the noble Viscount be no longer heard.

§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH
My Lords, I would suggest that perhaps the House would agree with me in saying that as the Leader of my Party is opening a debate on Foreign Affairs to-day in the House of Commons, and the Prime Minister is to engage in that debate, it would be a pity if we got a wrong atmosphere here at the moment until we have heard from more authoritative sources.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE
I am not clear whether my noble Leader is supporting the Motion that I be shut up or not.

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
My Lords, I can only say that the last thing I would desire to do would be to create any atmosphere of heat, but it is my duty, 738 standing in this place, to ask for the Orders of the House to be observed. Of course I am in the hands of the House as to whether it supports me or not. But, as I understood it, the noble Viscount, after having been asked whether he was going to ask a supplementary question, made it quite plain that he was not and was proceeding to make a point. I hope that the House will support me in saying that the Orders of the House in matters of this importance ought not to be lightly disregarded and intentionally flouted.