§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that since 1951, whilst the prices at which farmers sell wheat and pigs have decreased by 30 per cent., consumer prices for bread and pork have increased by almost 100 per cent., and, under these circumstances, who benefits from the subsidies.]
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, I cannot accept the noble Lord's figures. The prices that producers receive for wheat and pigs, though less than the fixed prices paid under the very different conditions of 1951, have not fallen to anything like the extent indicated in the noble Lord's Question. As regards consumer prices, I dealt very fully with bread in replying to the noble Lord on April 26. The latest information from the National Food Survey shows that the average retail price for pork is only about 50 per cent. higher than in 1951. The removal of consumer subsidies and 296 the general increase in distributive costs and services since 1951 have naturally led to increases in consumer prices for bread and pork. The present subsidies are paid directly to farmers to cover the difference between the guaranteed prices and the market prices. Consumer subsidies were paid for a very different reason. The Government are satisfied that the free market conditions which have been established since 1951 provide the best safeguard for farmers and consumers.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the figures with which he does not agree are not my figures but those of Her Majesty's Government—the only ones upon which we can work? And will he now please answer the Question: who benefits from the subsidies of £259 million, considering that the farmers' prices are much lower and the housewives' prices are much higher? It is a simple, straight question.
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, the benefit is to the farmers. The agricultural subsidies—the difference between the market price and the guaranteed price—are paid to the farmer. The farmer benefits.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I do not wish to prolong this. May I ask the noble Earl, in the interests of our greatest industry, now to make representations to his right honourable friend to have an inquiry into who really benefits from the subsidies and where the money goes to?—because from his answers it is by no means apparent, and I do not think that anyone in your Lordships' House thinks so.
EARL WALDEGRAVENo, my Lords. I will not give any indication at all to your Lordships that my right honourable friend thinks that an inquiry is necessary or desirable, or would bring us any further forward in my efforts to explain these figures to the noble Lord, Lord Stonham.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, could the noble Earl put in the OFFICIAL REPORT a set of tables giving his figures, so that we could do our sums correctly, and we should then not doubt the basis of the calculations?
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, those sets of figures and tables—voluminous sets of figures and tables 297 are published every year in a very large number of documents, including, of course, the Annual Determination of Prices and Guarantees. The figures which the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, has quoted do not come out of those tables.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, if the noble Earl disagrees with these figures will he tell us which figures in the Question are incorrect?—because they have all been taken from official sources. Which figures are wrong?
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, will the noble Lord tell me (perhaps I am not entitled to put it that way) from which table he takes the figures in his second question: that
the prices at which farmers sell wheat and pigs have decreased by 30 per cent., consumer prices for bread and pork have increased by almost 100 per cent."?Which tables do those figures come from?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, the figures of the decrease in the prices of wheat are a comparison between the current market price of 20s. per cwt. and the guaranteed market price of 28s. 4d. per cwt. in 1951. That is more than 30 per cent. Is the noble Earl further aware that the other difference of 30 per cent. is an under-estimate of the difference between £23 a pig in 1951 and £17 a pig now, which he agreed with last week? They are indeed an understatement and not an overstatement.
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, I must be very careful with these figures. Wheat producers in 1951 got a fixed price of 28s. 4d. a cwt. This year the guaranteed price is 26s. 11d.—I repeat, the guaranteed price is 26s. 11d.—and that is what a wheat producer, on average, gets: the market price plus the deficiency payment. That is the basis of the system, and it is an entirely different system from receiving a fixed price. With regard to the price of pork—I have these figures here—the fixed price for a pork pig of 6 score, 15 1b., was 50s. in 1951; to-day the guaranteed price for all pigs is 45s. 10d. That is an average, and in fact the free market generally has the result that a pork pig realises a premium over the average.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, my Question refers to
the prices at which farmers sell wheat and pigs".298 That is not the guaranteed price including the subsidy. I will not pursue the matter further, because the facts are obvious.