§ 3.5 p.m.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether their attention has been drawn to the Report of the Committee on the Safety of Nuclear-powered Merchant Ships; whether they concur with its findings, and what steps it is proposed to take as a result; and whether it is proposed to endeavour to deal with the question by international agreement of a stringent character.]
§ THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM)My Lords, as my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport has recently stated in another place, this Report contains a comprehensive survey of the measures required nationally and internationally to enable nuclear-powered merchant ships to be operated with safety, particularly in the initial stages of development. In the view of Her Majesty's Government, the Committee's recommendations will provide an excellent basis for legislation in due course and meanwhile for international discussion at the Conference on Safety of Life at Sea, which is to be held in London in May. They will also be discussed fully by my right honourable friend with the interests and authorities in this country who are concerned.
In their Report the Committee have made proposals in the form of draft recommendations to Governments. These proposals will be placed before the International Conference. The Committee took the view, with which my right honourable friend agrees, that it would 1264 be premature at this stage to seek to lay down firm international regulations.
§ EARL HOWEMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend very much for his comprehensive answer, can he assure me that full consideration will be given to paragraphs 36, 37, 38 and 39 of this Report? Will the Minister also bear in mind that at present a nuclear-engined ship wears no particular flag, nor has she any particular colour to indicate what she really is; that people going to the rescue of such a ship might themselves get into a position of the most serious danger in their endeavours to save life; and that it is of great importance to have adequate consideration of all these things before the first nuclear ship, apart from submarines and the like, puts to sea?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, the answer to the first part of my noble friend's question, is Yes. The answer to the second part is that there are recommendations in the Report for just the circumstances that my noble friend has suggested.
§ EARL HOWEMy Lords, may I ask whether it is appreciated that, in certain conditions, set out in the paragraphs to which I have already referred, there is an appalling danger from the point of view of the population on shore, and that places having concentrations of hundreds of thousands of people or more may be jeopardised by an accident, collision, grounding or similar trouble?
§ LORD CHESHAMYes, my Lords, that is appreciated. That is why I said that we considered that this Report was an excellent basis on which to start.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, in view of the obvious importance of this matter, which I am glad to see has been fully recognised by the Government—I am not complaining in any way—may I ask whether there have been any direct conversations with the United States of America, in view of the advanced stage of their preparation for nuclear-propelled merchant ships? I assume that the Admiralty are already fully informed and in touch with the United States as regards naval ships.
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, as I understand it, there has been a certain amount of conversation, but undoubtedly 1265 before the "Savannah"—which no doubt the noble Viscount has in mind—is likely to seek to enter our waters there will be further conversations which will have to lead to agreement.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, will the noble Lord elucidate a point in his original Answer, when he said that it was not contemplated that there would be firm international regulations? What kind of regulations will they be if they are not firm?
§ LORD CHESHAMIt is envisaged, my Lords, that they would be recommendations which would be adopted internationally—that people would, so to speak, agree to play to these regulations, which would then require bilateral negotiations between Governments as they operated their ships in and out of each other's waters. The general feeling, which is strongly held by the Committee—the noble Lord will see this if he has read the Report, as no doubt he has—is that to lay down an International Convention binding the development of nuclear ships and their operation would, so far as we have got at the moment, be likely to have a hampering effect on what is a most important development in shipping; and to do so now might well lead to the difficulty of having to make later amendments to an internationally agreed World Convention. It is better to learn a little more before the Convention is laid down firmly.
§ EARL HOWEMy Lords, with apologies to the House for putting yet another supplementary question, may I ask whether the noble Lord's answer means that there is nothing whatever to prevent a country from sending a nuclear-propelled ship to sea? What happens in the event of a disaster, which may involve hundreds of thousands of people, as is stated in the Report?
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, before the noble Lord replies, and following what the noble Earl, Lord Howe, has said, could I ask the noble Lord the Minister whether he is satisfied that adequate safeguards can be provided with regard to the containment structure and its solidity in the event of collision 1266 or of a ship breaking its back, to avoid any of the radioactive fission products seeping out from the containment area into the atmosphere?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, I trust that my noble friend is not seeking to lead me off into technical questions on this subject at the present time. It would appear that if these safeguards are sufficiently thought out and adhered to internationally, dangers such as my noble friend Lord Merrivale has mentioned can be greatly reduced. In answer to the question of my noble friend Lord Howe, it would be possible as matters stand at the moment for someone to sail a nuclear ship, say into our waters; but we are talking a little ahead because at the moment—and I stress "at the moment"—nobody has one to sail. By the time someone is ready to sail one into our waters Her Majesty's Government most sincerely hope that this matter will be properly regulated, to minimise every possible risk that could arise from such ships.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I am very much obliged for that answer. I think, on the whole, it is a very good one. But we in this country are always anxious to maintain the tradition—our greet tradition, at any rate—of the brothel hood of the sea, and I hope that the inquiries and consultations which will take pl ice may perhaps lead to a general international regulation which will require ill non-nuclear-propelled ships to carry all the equipment necessary to support sailors of all classes of ships in keeping up the tradition of rescue at sea.
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, for saying that, because it is very much the view of Her Majesty's Government that this should be done in a proper way, as we have always tried to conduct our shipping policy. That is why we hope to be able to take a leading part in bringing about a satisfactory international Convention in due course, with reasonable arrangements in the meantime.