§ 2.55 p.m.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, having regard to the general satisfaction felt at the result of the Royal Commission on Doctors' Remuneration and the Government implementation of its recommendations, and having regard also to the new importance now being attached to medical auxiliaries, as evidenced by the passage through Parliament of the Professions Supplementary to Medicine Bill, they will now set up a Royal Commission or other appropriate body to inquire into the salaries and conditions of work of the professional persons covered by this Bill.]
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, In the view of Her Majesty's Government, the special circumstances which led to the decision to set up the Royal Commission on Doctors' and Dentists' Remuneration have no application to the professions covered by the Professions Supplementary to Medicine Bill. This Bill, which has now received its Second Reading in your Lordships' House, is, of course, concerned solely with providing for the registration, training and discipline of the members of the professions concerned. The remuneration and conditions of service of members of the professions employed in the National Health Service are negotiated by the National Health. Service Professional and Technical Whitley Councils A and B, and Her Majesty's Government consider that normal opportunities for negotiation provided by this machinery are fully adequate for their purpose.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, with respect, does not this look like one law for the doctors and another law for the supplementary workers, without whom the doctors would be powerless to do their jobs? Does my noble friend know that the supplementary workers are not satisfied with the Whitley Council, and will he reconsider the Answer which he has given?
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, before the noble Viscount replies, may I ask whether he is not aware that there are Whitley Councils for the doctors, but that that fact did not stop the setting up of a Royal Commission for them? These professions are in an infinitely worse financial position than the doctors, and while not subscribing completely to the noble Lord's observations about doctors and the supplementary professsions, I would agree that the value of their work is very great and their remuneration very poor.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, before the noble Viscount replies—
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMCould I answer one question at a time? We are getting rather numerous supplementary questions. I promise the noble Baroness that she shall be next. I cannot for an instant accept the proposition that because a Royal Commission is set up to discuss the remuneration in one profession, in all other cases of wage negotiations it is to be treated as a slight on the employees if a Royal Commission is not set up in that profession, too. That seems to me to be the wrong way of approaching the matter; and it would, in fact, be a counsel of despair in all wage negotiations.
In reply to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, I would say that the circumstances which led to the appointment of the Royal Commission were that a fundamental disagreement had developed between the Government and the two professions about the basis upon which the professions' remuneration in the Health Service ought to be determined. Complex questions had arisen, such as the precise meaning of what had been implied by Government acceptance in principle of the three Spens Reports drawn up before the Health Service was brought into being in July, 1948. According to the Royal Commission, the disputes which arose did
nothing to promote the smooth working of the National Health Service.I should hardly think that a comparable situation had arisen in relation to the 192 seven supplementary professions. I think it is fair to say, in answer to my noble friend Lord Fraser of Lonsdale, that since October, 1959, the National Health Service salaries and sessional fees of six of the seven professions covered by the Bill have been increased by agreements freely arrived at on the appropriate Whiteley Council. The salaries of the remaining class, the radiographers, were determined, in default of agreement, by an award of the Industrial Court, effective from February 1, 1959. In all cases the increases were more than would have been justified by increases in the cost of living alone, and in some cases where very considerable.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, could the noble and learned Viscount indicate the criteria which determine whether a dispute about the remuneration of a particular profession should be settled by a Royal Commission or by some body of lesser eminence?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMI think that, clearly, the criterion is that a Royal Commission should be invoked for any sort of inquiry only when the ordinary machinery is either not working or will not work.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I am sure the noble and learned Viscount is absolutely right in rejecting the suggestion of a Royal Commission, but is he aware, as we who have charge of hospitals are aware, that these people are disgracefully under-paid, a fact which creates great difficulties in the running of hospitals? Whilst conceding all he says about the Whitley Councils, I would ask him whether he would have a word with his right honourable friend to see if something could be done. After all, the last increase for radiographers was in February last year, and they are surely entitled now to a further increase.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMI think I must assume in all wage negotiations that the ordinary negotiating machinery should be used first.