Lords Sitting of 28 July 1960

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Exeter

THE OVERSEA CIVIL SERVICE
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps are being taken to ensure the future of members of the Overseas Administrative and Police services in the interests not only of the officers themselves but of the continuance of sound administration and security in the dependent and new self-governing territories.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COLONIAL AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF PERTH): My Lords, I trust that the noble Earl will be kind enough to wait for the statement on the subject matter of this Question—that is, about Her Majesty's Oversea Civil Service—which I shall be making a little later this afternoon, some time after half-past three o'clock.

SUBSCRIPTIONS TO UNITED NATIONS
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, in begging leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper, may I express my own welcome and congratulations to the Foreign Secretary?
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will state how many members there are of the United Nations; how many pay their subscriptions regularly and what is the United Kingdom subscription.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWE): My Lords, there are
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now 82 members of the United Nations. Generally, about 50 Member States pay their contributions to the United Nations budget within the calendar year, which is the United Nations financial year. At the end of January this year, about 8 per cent. of contributions to the United Nations budget for 1959, and 5 per cent. of contributions for 1958, were outstanding. Her Majesty's Government at present contribute 7·78 per cent. of the United Nations budget. Our share of the approved budget for 1960 amounts to £1,415,000.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for the Answer, could I ask him whether the funds thus subscribed by some members pay all the expenses of occupying various parts of the world, and whether it would not be a good idea to have a rule that those who are represented shall subscribe?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, in answer to the first part of my noble friend's question, I am afraid that I should like notice of the question. But so far as I know, the answer is, Yes. As to whether all members should pay, the answer is that they do, but sometimes they pay late. Her Majesty's Government are trying to set an example by accelerating our rate of payment, and in future our contribution will be paid in three instalments—a quarter on January 1, a half on April 1 and a quarter on July 1.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My, Lords, may I ask my noble friend if there are some who have never paid but have often voted?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: So far as I know, my Lords, no.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, would it not be perhaps, a better incentive to those countries who do not pay if we did not pay up quickly as an example but paid pro rata, as other people pay?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I do not quite agree with the noble Earl. Perhaps example is better than precept, and possibly what we are doing is the best thing.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, have the United Nations any power of distrain

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on the assets of the Embassies abroad of those Powers who are in arrears with their subscriptions?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I think that I ought to have notice of that Question.
LORD KILLEARN: Could the noble Marquess say how many members are actually in default in their payments?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I gave the figures in percentages in my original reply: 8 per cent. of the contributions for 1959 were outstanding and 5 per cent. of the contributions for 1958. I am afraid that I cannot say what the position is by countries.
LORD KILLEARN: My Lords, I apologise for not giving notice of the question.

AGRICULTURAL AND SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH OVERSEAS
3.7 p.m.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Agricultural Research Council and the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research have power to spend money on maintaining research workers in overseas territories, as the Medical Research Council can do; and, if not, whether Her Majesty's Government will take steps to confer such powers on the Agricultural Research Council and the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research.]
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, I am advised that both the Agricultural Research Council and the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, like the Medical Research Council, have powers to maintain research workers in overseas territories where it is in the national interest to do so. The Department of Scientific and Industrial Research does, in fact, have some research staff in stations of the Department overseas. Moreover, both
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the Department and the Agricultural Research Council assist overseas territories by seconding staff for limited periods within the limit of their resources. Proposals for extending these arrangements are under examination. While it is considered that existing powers should be adequate for any extension which may be decided upon, I can assure the noble Lord that Her Majesty's Government will not hesitate to seek additional powers if necessary.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, may I thank the noble Viscount for that Answer and express the hope that he will be able to expedite any additional power required, in view of the possibility that Iron Curtain scientists may replace our own in giving this kind of advice? May I also ask whether the noble Viscount is aware that those interested in science are pleased that he is still going to be looking after this matter?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for the second supplementary, which I can assure him excites a warm gratitude in my heart. As regards the first, I certainly am aware that this is an important and, indeed, urgent matter. I think that the statement which my noble friend is likely to make later on will have a bearing, and I hope a favourable bearing, on this whole topic.

PARLIAMENTARY TIMETABLE AND FISCAL YEAR
LORD REA: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are now sensible of a general support for the proposal that, in the interests of Parliament and of the country, the Parliamentary Summer Recess should start and end some weeks earlier than at present; and that consideration should simultaneously be given to altering the financial year so that it shall coincide with the calendar year.]
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORT-FOLIO (THE EARL OF DUNDEE): No, my Lords, I am not aware that there is any widespread support for this proposal.

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When we discussed a similar question on July 7, 1959, the noble Lord stated that there was considerable support throughout the country for his suggestions. I am bound to say that we have very little evidence of that. As regards the question of the financial year, as my noble friend the Lord President of the Council, as I think he has been since this morning, explained last year, the present arrangements have served us well for more than a century, and we should want to be sure that there were substantial advantages to be gained before changing them.
LORD REA: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for his Answer, which really repeats what was said last year. I interpreted that reply as meaning that the Government would be willing to find out whether there was this desire. I would ask the noble Earl whether they would consider asking the 1,500-odd Members of both Houses of Parliament what their views are. I would ask the noble Earl to bear in mind that this is a serious question; otherwise I should have stopped my Question at the word "sensible" in the first line.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, what my noble friend said last year was that the Government would consider any argument which might be put forward in favour of any particular change; he did not say that he would incite people to give their views. I think that there may be some arguments, particularly from Scottish Members, against the change suggested. September is a month when there is less rain in Scotland, and I should think that Scottish Members of both Houses would oppose this violently and protest at being brought back at that time.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, of course noble Lords on this side have not felt incited to make further representations. What we should like is a little reform, sometimes, in the progress of Parliamentary Business, so that we are not crowded at the end of the Session with Amendments which we cannot adequately consider.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, are we to gather that the Sittings of Parliament are to be governed by whether it rains in Scotland?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I can imagine very much worse reasons by which they could be governed.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, if the financial year were changed, would it not mean that we should have to pay our owners' taxes three months earlier than we do now?

COLOUR FILMS OF STATE OPENING
3.12 p.m.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, perhaps it would be convenient to the House if I were now to make this statement. After consultation through the usual channels, the Government have decided—and The Queen has been graciously pleased to agree—that colour films should be made of the State Opening of the next Session. We feel that a vivid record in this form, of one of our great occasions, will be welcomed not only in this country but by all our partners in the Commonwealth and will be of real and lasting value.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, we welcome the proposal to have a colour film, but do I understand that it is to be a silent film? Are there to be any sound arrangements? Is the film to be reproduced in any other form afterwards, maybe not in colour, for educational purposes?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I ought to know the answers to all these questions. I had assumed, in my innocence, that a film nowadays always has a sound track attached to it. If I am wrong, no doubt I shall be able to correct myself with the noble Viscount. But I believe that it is the intention to have a colour film with a sound track attached to it. It follows from the fact that you take coloured pictures that black-and-white reproductions of the film are available to those who need them; and I am sure that the noble Viscount's suggestion is a very good one.

THE BECHUANALAND PROTECTORATE
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, I think this is a convenient moment to make a short statement, which I am anxious should be made before the House rises, on the Bechuanaland Protectorate Constitution.
As Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations, I received proposals from the High Commissioner for the establishment in the Bechuanaland Protectorate of Legislative and Executive Councils. The Legislative Council will have an elected unofficial majority, with equal numbers of European and African unofficial members and one elected Asian member. The Executive Council will have an official majority, and also with equal numbers of European and African unofficial members. I approved these proposals, which are almost identical with the unanimous recommendations of the Constitutional Committee, which were endorsed by the Joint Advisory Council. A White Paper setting out the proposals will be laid as soon as possible.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Earl for giving us this statement. I am sure that in all parts of the House we are always ready to welcome any particular step forward in the constitutional development of such territories as our Protectorate of Bechuanaland. I notice that there are to be elected members of the Legislature, and I suppose that there will be some basis of voters' rolls. I do not know whether it is convenient to ask now—or perhaps it will be shown in the White Paper—how the roll will be made up, and what sort of time will elapse before an election takes place.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I should rather like to leave the details. The details have really all been agreed out there, by Africans, Europeans and Asians and the Joint Advisory Council, and they are acceptable. I think that the franchise proposals are acceptable, too. Therefore I should rather like the thing to be seen as a whole in a White Paper before commenting on parts of it.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, may I welcome the proposals in the statement
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and ask the noble Earl whether it is not a fact that, owing to these and other imaginative proposals, the High Commission territories are becoming examples to other territories in that part of Africa?
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, that is certainly our intention, and I hope that we have gone some way to achieve it.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, may I remind your Lordships that the House will meet at noon to-morrow, followed by a Royal Commission at 12.15, after which such Questions as are on the Order Paper will be taken. I would ask your Lordships if you would be good enough, if you possibly can, to attend to-morrow so that we may have a reasonable House for the Royal Commission.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Dundee.)
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, I had intended to ask a question on this Bill, because this is the widest opportunity that the House has to discuss anything and I had intended to raise the matter of the increased burden which falls on this House following on the Government changes. But it would be very inconvenient at this moment, and as I understand that Questions are to follow the Royal Commission to-morrow, I propose to put down an unstarred Question asking what the Government are doing to organise the Business of the House to meet the new charges that are placed upon it.
On Question, Bill read 2a; Committee negatived.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of July 14), Bill read 3a, and passed.

NIGERIA INDEPENDENCE BILL
3.16 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty places her prerogative and interests, so far as concerns the matters dealt with by the Nigeria Independence Bill, at the disposal of Parliament.
My Lords, I cannot imagine a more fitting start to a period of office as Foreign Secretary than to introduce this Bill, the effect of which is to give independence to Nigeria and so to enable Nigeria to exercise her influence in her own right on the world stage as an equal partner in the Commonwealth. To describe Nigeria as a great African country is right. Nigeria is great in area, equal to France and to Italy combined; she has a great population of some 37 million; and, as anybody who has met the leading Nigerian personalities could testify, Nigeria is great in character too. We have had much experience now in leading colonial territories to independence, but our experience of the approach to independence when we were negotiating with the Nigerians has been exceptionally happy, and I think we may say that as between the Nigerians and ourselves there is now complete confidence in the new relationship which is established, which is one of equal partners in the Commonwealth family.
I am aware that this is not the day or the place to discuss the details of the Constitution. Nevertheless, the constitutional framework is a Federal Constitution, in which each Region is self-governing in its own field; but the Federal centre, of course, is responsible for defence, security, external affairs and other matters which concern the whole of the country. Each Region has a separate Judiciary, but your Lordships will be glad to know that, while there is a Federal Supreme Court, the Nigerians are going to preserve the right of appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. The Constitution, as we have worked it out with the Nigerians, has seemed to us to be workmanlike and fair, and to be a
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structure which will give confidence both in the Regions and to all the races in the country of Nigeria, and will contribute to that political stability which is so necessary if the economic development of the country is to proceed as we should wish to see it. The Constitutions, both Federal and Regional, will be made in an Order in Council and Independence Day will be on October 1.
I have made that preface to this Bill because so frequently have we had this experience: that these Bills bringing independence to colonial territories are now in common form and very familiar to your Lordships, and had I confined myself actually to the terms of the Bill it would have been a very dry and unengaging way of welcoming the birth of a new, proud and independent nation.
Clause 1 really consists of what are known as the Statute of Westminster clauses, which provide that the Acts of this Parliament shall no longer apply to Nigeria. These are provisions appropriate to a self-governing country within the Commonwealth. Clause 2 deals with the very complicated questions of citizenship. At the moment, most of the people of Nigeria are British-protected persons, but the inhabitants of the original Colony, and particularly around Lagos, are citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies. What we provide here is that citizens of Nigeria will in future, in our law, have the status of British subjects and Commonwealth citizens. Conversely, those who have no substantial connection with the United Kingdom or Colonies will cease to be citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies. Effect to these provisions is given in subsections (2), (3), (4) and (5).
Clause 3 contains the necessary modifications of other United Kingdom enactments, and if your Lordships examine them you will find that they have followed exactly the same pattern as we used in the case of the Ghana Independence Bill. Part of Clause 4 is new, because it brings within the scope of the Overseas Service Act, 1958, a small body of persons serving, or having served, with the naval forces, and that rectifies an omission in previous legislation.
Before I conclude my short introduction of this Independence Bill, I should like to refer to a most generous act of the Nigerian Government. They have

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made us a gift of a really magnificent site for the house of the United Kingdom High Commissioner, and they have made a substantial contribution to the cost of the building. It is on the Marina sea front of Lagos, and is one of the most prominent landmarks as one approaches from the sea. We are very grateful indeed to the Nigerians for this most handsome gift. As your Lordships know, Mr. Antony Head is going as our High Commissioner. He is a colleague of ours whom, Of course, we hold in great esteem and whose qualities are widely recognised. This appointment has emphasised in a most personal way the value which we place on our friendship with Nigeria.
The House will be glad to know, too, that on Independence Day the Lord Chancellor will be representing this country, among others who are going from both Houses of Parliament, and he will be able to convey to the Nigerian people from your Lordships and from Parliament, and indeed from the Whole of our country, our joy in their independence and our faith in their future. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Home.)
3.24 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, I rise to support the Second Reading of this Bill. As the noble Earl commented when he was opening his address to us to-day, it is particularly appropriate that he should be able to introduce this Bill on the first day that he operates as Foreign Secretary. I should like, therefore, to take this opportunity of saying to the noble Earl and the whole House that we congratulate him on the confidence placed in him by the Prime Minister. I must say that we regret that he has not had as good a Press as I think he so thoroughly deserves. It may well be that in these modern times, for reasons of space—I would not say for other reasons—the Press is unable to give sufficient attention to the very important business which is still transacted in your Lordships' House. If they had been able to give attention to it they could not have failed to mark the stature of the Leader of this House and his general capacity.
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The next thing I should like to say is that, mixed with our desire to convey our congratulations to him on this great and difficult post Which he has undertaken, we must regret very sincerely what all of us will agree is a loss to the House in not having him to continue as Leader of the House. Speaking as the Leader of the Opposition, I am quite sure—other sections of the Opposition will no doubt speak for themselves—that we have never had more cordial relationships, nor could we have had greater assistance because of the goodwill of the Leader in arranging, without undue acrimony, the difficult and complex agenda of business of this House. It is vastly important, when dealing with such affairs of State as we still deal with here, that there should be the best possible understanding between Leaders of the Oppositions and the Leader of the House. I want to say how very grateful I am personally to the noble Earl for the manner in which he has met us at all times on these questions. I should like to say that no one can fail to note that in the last three years he has fulfilled his office as Leader of the House in such a way as to impress it upon all our minds.
The noble Earl was, of course, an outstanding cricketer—I suppose that I ought to say "is"—and at one time quite a notable cricket leader. When he had to follow such a leader as the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, three years ago, obviously he was going in to bat on a very sticky wicket. I think the noble Marquess, as well as everybody else, will agree that the noble Earl has played a fine innings; and we are thankful for that.
Having said all these things very sincerely, I am sure the noble Earl will not expect to find me and my colleagues differing in principle from our colleagues in another place as to the House of Parliament in which usually the Foreign Secretary ought obviously to sit. We will make no further comment on it then that except to say that we agree with the claim of the purely representative House to have the principal Ministers of State there. I think they are right. That means that the noble Earl comes in again on a very sticky wicket. I feel certain myself that his tradition, his personality, his obviously well-experienced diplomacy will all stand him in good stead, and in spite

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of all that has been written, said or is to be said, we wish that, in the interests of our country as well as for himself, his success in the Office will be particularly great.
The other thing I should like to say while I am on my feet is that we must congratulate the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Hailsham, on being once again Lord President of the Council and also undertaking the new duties of Leader of the House. I wish him very sincerely every possible success. I say equally sincerely to him that we appreciate his bursting ability and his power of argument. We appreciate many of his qualities, but perhaps he will not mind my quoting a few words that I learnt by heart in years past, though I have reinforced myself by going to the Library again this morning. This quotation is from Bacon's Essay, Of Great Place. I think that our retiring Leader of the House has really absolutely vindicated Lord Bacon. I am just wishing that there should be such success as Leader to the noble Viscount that he will also vindicate him by the time he ends his term as Leader of the House. This is what Lord Bacon says:
"Use the memory of thy predecessor fairly and tenderly; for if thou dost not, it is a debt will surely be paid when thou art gone. If thou have colleagues, respect them, and rather call them when they look not for it, than exclude them when they have reason to look to be called."
That is how I have appreciated the work of the noble Earl who is now to be Foreign Secretary, and perhaps the noble and learned Viscount will not blame me if, in wishing him success in his new post, I just pass on the tip.
My Lords, I had forgotten for the moment that I have risen to support the Bill on Nigeria. May I say at once, very briefly, how much we on this side of the House welcome the fact that the noble Earl was able to introduce such a Bill to-day. We have had great troubles and difficulties in gradually settling in different ways the great family of nations for which we have been, and in some cases will continue to be, responsible. But here is one of the finest and best examples of what Britain and her Colonies can achieve if there is good will upon both sides. I think the negotiations which were commented upon by the noble Earl have been
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outstanding in the display of that spirit. Here is a vast and important tract of country, with three obvious provinces, shall I call them now, within the new State—provinces of different resources, of different peoples almost, language, custom and religion—which will join at this early stage in a Federal Government. It is a very proud moment for the British Commonwealth of Nations, that such a group of accomplished and noble people, as many of the Nigerians are, should have chosen to seek entry into the British Commonwealth of Nations on gaining their independence. I think it is indeed very much to be welcomed.
I should also, because of my nostalgia for a movement called the Co-operative Movement, like to say how much I value the record already achieved by Nigeria in the development of really successful indigenous co-operation. I am glad to think that in different parts of our colonial territories the influence of the British has meant a freedom to develop and to carry on with the education which accrues from the movement in co-operation. If we take Ghana, which was recently given its complete independence, we find that 25 per cent. of the whole of its cocoa crop is marketed by co-operative cocoa producers. If we take Nigeria at the present time, we find that 20 per cent. of the whole of its agricultural product is handled by its own grower producer co-operatives. If we take Tanganyika, in whose future I have great hopes, we find that a third of the Tanganyika Legislative Council are trained co-operative managers and officials. It is vastly important, in these new, emergent territories, to remember that, whatever we do in trying to help them in the future, we can do nothing better than give them confidence and power in themselves and their own productive capacity. We should learn the truth, in this period in our own country's history, when we are told we "never had it so good," that we must leave the lasting lesson with all the population—a lesson which is true in every sphere of life—that "If you put more in you will get more out." That is a very important lesson to learn.
I am very happy about the statement which was made by the noble Earl, and not least because of the progress which has been made so rapidly in setting up

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the Federal Court, which will be able to operate, I take it, as soon as Independence Day comes. And after the matters that we have discussed in relation to other countries about the right of appeal to the Privy Council, we are very pleased indeed that the Nigerian people have agreed to adhere to that old, well-established and profitable custom of appeal to the Privy Council. Moreover I think it is a happy augury for the future that the feelings of Nigeria towards us are such that they could be capable at this time of making such a handsome gift of the site for the High Commissioner's House, in addition to the cost of building it. On behalf of the Opposition, I should like to say to the Nigerian Government, through this Government, how grateful we feel to them for their feelings towards us, and I hope that that happy state will continue for all time.
I hope that the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor, when he goes, may find it has been conveniently arranged that he will be so attired in his official robes as to be easily recognisable by any of the most humble Nigerians, and show the importance which is attached to their Independence Day in the person who has been selected to attend. I hope he will have a very happy day on that occasion. May I say, in conclusion, that if we go on learning the lesson that we can meet the real and deserved and sound desires of peoples in our Colonial territories in time, take the decisions at the right time and get them prepared at the right time, how happy it will be if one follows after another the story of Nigeria and we go on expanding the new form of Commonwealth and family relations!
3.38 p.m.
LORD REA: My Lords, in view of a Question which I have just put to Her Majesty's Government, I think it would be not only inconsistent but inconsiderate of me to delay your Lordships more than one minute on this important matter, important though it is. The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, will give from these Benches the views of the noble Lords on these Benches, who, of course, very strongly and enthusiastically support this Bill. Like the noble Viscount, the Leader of the Opposition, I could not let this occasion pass without also paying my very sincere and
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heartfelt tribute to one who has won the hearts of us all in this House, the noble Earl, Lord Home. It is appropriate that he is, so to speak, taking Nigeria with him to-day from one Department to another, but it is our loss that we shall not have him to guide us on these matters of Commonwealth relations. We have really benefited tremendously by his presiding over all such debates, and perhaps even more so as Leader of the House.
I take it that as Foreign. Secretary we shall, unfortunately, not have the pleasure of seeing him so often as in the past, and I endorse everything the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, has said. We are sorry to see him pass into the half shadow, and I hope he will come back again or perhaps not really pass into it. At the same time, I welcome the advent of the noble and learned Viscount whom we all know, all enjoy and all admire, Lord Hailsham. Like the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, I would just remind him that Oppositions are unavoidable evils which must occasionally be put up with. I will not continue further, except to say to those two noble Lords, "Ave atque vale", which might be roughly translated as "Hailsham and farewell".
3.40 p.m.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, this is a day of congratulation in this House, tinged, I think, with just a shadow of regret that, to-day, the Commonwealth loses in the person of the former Leader of the House what a wider area gains. I am sure my noble friend the Foreign Secretary must have been touched by the tributes which have been paid to him and which represent the universal feelings of this House, whose Members all know him intimately and love what they know. As the Leader of the Opposition said, it is never easy to follow such a conspicuous success as Leader of the House as was the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, but my noble friend has succeeded. The House never had a better Leader; the Commonwealth never had a better Secretary of State. We who know him best know that he has all the qualities for his new and arduous post, in which we wish him well.
I have had so many and long associations with Nigeria that I rejoice in having

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the opportunity to add my good wishes on this occasion. I am confident that Nigeria not only will have a prosperous future, but will make a signal contribution to the strength and unity of the Commonwealth; for Nigeria has proved how diverse peoples can combine in successful union, while maintaining their own individuality. If Nigeria has owed much, as it has, to wise and sympathetic guidance and administration in the past, and not least to Sir Arthur Richards, now Lord Milverton—the best Nigerian Governor since Lugard—Britain has owed as much to Nigeria. Our debt to every province in Nigeria in the war was immense. Tens of thousands of Nigerians volunteered—there was not a single pressed man—for active service in a war thousands of miles remote from themselves, and served with gallantry and suffered heavy casualties in arduous campaigns.
It was thanks to the efforts of literally millions of Nigerians that we in Britain were able to maintain our fat ration during the war—groundnuts were produced on a scale never before attempted. More remarkable still, in a single year they produced and sent to us over 400,000 tons of palm kernels. When one realises—which unless one has actually seen the little things, one cannot—that it takes 1 million kernels to make a ton, one has some conception of that achievement. This was no great machinery business; there was hardly a cracking machine in the country. Those thousands of millions of hard little nuts were hand cracked in every village and in every school in Nigeria where a palm tree grew. Nor shall I forget the 30 airfields which were built in Nigeria, almost entirely built by Nigerian labour, with little equipment except their hands and their heads. It was over those airfields that every single aircraft had to pass to the desert campaign, to India, to Burma, and indeed to Russia.
That was a partnership which we in Britain will never forget. Nigeria has always been proud of its art. Its people seem to be naturally endowed with an aptitude for carving and for leather work, I do not know whether, in the 16th century, a Nigerian fashioned the famous Ife heads, or maybe they were the work of some wandering craftsmen of the Renaissance. But this I do know: that it was the Oni of Ife who firmly
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insisted that these wonderful Ife heads should stay in Nigeria when the metropolitan museums of the world were making insistent and ever increasing take-over bids. It is with those memories in mind to-day, as I know we all do from the bottom of our hearts, that we wish all prosperity, happiness and success to Nigeria and to its peoples.
3.46 p.m.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I wonder whether the House would allow me, as I may have to go away, to respond in a few words to the great kindness of the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition, the noble Lord, Lord Rea, and my noble friend Lord Swinton for the kind words that they have said about me. The House will forgive me at this moment if I cannot find words adequate to reply. I was extremely lucky in my predecessor—I am afraid that I "cashed in" outrageously on his popularity—in the way he led this House in the early days. But, as we have gone along, I have found that the House has been immensely tolerant with me, and I could not have had more loyal assistance in trying to guide the House than I have had from every quarter of it and from every Member in it. If, during the time that I have led the House, we have managed to enhance its stature in the eyes of the country—and I think that we have managed to do that altogether—then that is really sufficient reward for me.
I know that this House will give to Lord Hailsham the complete loyalty that it has given to me. We know that he has all the mental qualities and all the qualities of character to make a great success of the leadership, and I wish him great success in his new office, in which we shall all help to sustain him. I do not deny that the last few days have not been too easy to face, and occasionally some of the criticisms have tended to get me down. But at those moments my Scottish blood has come to my rescue and reminded me that all the publicity is free.
3.48 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, as one who for many years has taken a considerable part in this House in Commonwealth affairs, I should like to associate myself with everything that my noble Leader has said about the noble Earl,

913
Lord Home, and to identify myself with and endorse his sentiments. I should also like to welcome the new Leader of the House.
We are to-day once more welcoming a new independent member of the Commonwealth. It is the second Independence Bill that we have had in the course of a week, which I think in itself must be something of a record, even in this country, where we have granted independence to so many countries in the last twelve or fourteen years, and I should like to congratulate all who have made possible this happy transition, especially successive Secretaries of State and their staffs and the "Big Four" of Nigeria—the Sardauna of Sokoto, the present Prime Minister of the Federation, Dr. Azikiwe—proably the most widely known leader in Nigeria—and Chief Awolowo. I think we also ought at this time to extend our thanks to those who have worked in the territory itself, as civil servants, as traders and as professional men in various capacities; and as the Governor to a large extent represents them and makes an enormous contribution, I should like to thank the Governors, who in Nigeria have been a particularly distinguished group. We have one here to-day in the person of the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, and I think we should thank him for the very great work he did in Nigeria. In a sense he was the begetter of all this, since the "Richards Constitution", as it was known, was the first of the modern Constitutions.
May I just strike a comparatively small note? I am very pleased that Nigeria is to remain as a member of the Commonwealth Institute. Your Lordships may remember that on the Cyprus Bill I regretted that that was not so; but Nigeria is to remain, and I am very pleased about that, because I am a great believer in the Institute. It is, in fact, the only institution to 'which all the Commonwealth countries contribute, both annually and in special ways, in cash and in kind. We have a new and very fine and, I think, most imaginative building being put up very soon in Holland Park, and in that building Nigeria will take its rightful place.
I believe we have here a lesson which those in many parts of the world will
914
not fail to draw: that is to say, the difference between the situation in the Congo and that in Nigeria. I am not going to make any comment on that at all, for I do not think it is for us in this House to do so—nor even for anyone in Britain. I will leave it to the words of a Nigerian in a very important position, Mr. Benson, who is the Federal Minister of Information and a highly experienced politician. In a report in the Guardian Mr. Benson was reported as saying:
"We have no fear that the trouble which has overwhelmed our neighbours in the Congo will be repeated in our country. As far back as 50 years ago you—"
that is, Britain,
"were helping our people to come to this country for training in law, medicine, administration, science and technology. The whole framework of democratic government has been firmly built. Britain recognised long ago that if you are going to hand over power you must ensure that those receiving it understand their responsibilities and are trained to assume them."
I believe we all accept that those very wise words from Mr. Benson sum up the position very well. I particularly hope that the United States Government and other members of the United Nations, who have maintained over the years a policy of ceaseless harrying of the Colonial Powers to run out of their responsibilities for colonial peoples, irrespective of the state of advancement which those colonial peoples had achieved, will listen to those words—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!
LORD OGMORE: —because undoubtedly, in my view, and I believe in the view of many other, more competent, observers than myself—they have been responsible for quite a lot of difficulties and trouble in Africa and elsewhere. I hope that our association with Nigeria will not be less close than it was before independence but that it will become ever closer. I believe that we in this country should do our best to afford what assistance they desire from us that it is in our power to give in economic, educational and technical fields as well as in the secondment of military, naval and police officers.
I would ask Her Majesty's Government to make a special effort to assist Nigeria in education. I know that we ourselves are terribly short of teachers but from personal observation in Nigeria I can

915
assure the noble Earl who is to reply that their case is far worse than ours and that they need every possible help we can give. We are, of course, doing a good deal over here. There are 5,000 Nigerians studying in the United Kingdom in higher educational institutions; and a few are at school. We have had one or two Nigerians at Mill Hill for some years past and at the moment we have there as a scholar the son of the Emir of Kano; but in most cases the Nigerians here are in the higher educational institutions, not in schools.
The Judicial Committee of the Privy Council has been mentioned, and I am particularly glad that the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, is to go to Nigeria for the Independence celebrations. I can assure the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, that the noble and learned Viscount will make a very impressive figure. I say this because, as he knows, I was at the Malayan Independence celebrations—"Merdeka"—at which the noble and learned Viscount attended suitable functions dressed in full-bottomed wig and in his best robes—not the ones he has on now. They were magnificent robes and I must say I gave him full marks, if I may put it colloquially, because it was jolly hot there and he must have been a little uncomfortable. At least, he looked splendid, as I am sure he will in West Africa.
I would take this opportunity of asking the noble and learned Viscount to bear one or two matters in mind—I know that he cannot reply on this to-day. I am particularly glad that the arrangement for appeal to the Privy Council has continued. That has not by any means been the case everywhere. Is it not possible for the Judicial Committee to pay even one visit to Nigeria fairly soon? I am perfectly certain that that would have a wonderful effect. I know that there has been some difficulty about robes, but here perhaps I can let your Lordships into a little secret. There has been a precedent, in that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, went to Sierra Leone recently—within the last week or two—when he wore a full-bottomed wig and his Parliamentary robes, which, I am sure, made a great impression. It seems to me that that
916
is one suggestion which could be carried out. Those noble and learned Lords are Peers—or at least most, if not all, of them—and could wear Parliamentary robes and full-bottomed wigs, which would strike awe into the hearts of the onlookers, I am sure.
That would be a very good thing. After all, the population of Nigeria is 37 million. They are staying on in the Commonwealth with us and are still to have appeals to the Privy Council; and, that being so, it would be excellent if, for once, the Privy Council could go there. Also, I believe that it is very important to have a West African Judge as a member of the Judicial Committee. I think that that would be a most important thing. Quite a number of cases now come to the Privy Council from West Africa, and I am sure that it would be of great assistance and most helpful if that could be done.
I was to have said a word about expatriate civil servants, but I gather that the noble Earl, Lord Perth, is making a statement on that subject to-day, so I will say no more on it now except to hope that there will be a generous settlement of the problem. It is most important that we do act imaginatively and generously there, because, to a large extent, even with independence, part of the framework of these territories consists of these expatriate civil servants; and anything we can do to help maintain that framework is all to the good.
May I say just one word, through the House, to Nigeria? I would urge the independent Government to do what we were not able to do when we were responsible: to cut out child slavery. Unfortunately there is still a certain amount of that in the Province of Calabar and elsewhere, and I feel that this is one thing that the independent Government of Nigeria will want to tackle in a big way. I think it should be stamped out. These little children are sold, and often before the age of puberty they have gone through three or four hands. I think it is time that that was stamped out, and I am sure they will want to do it. It will need probation officers and child welfare officers. Until recently there was only one such welfare officer in the whole of Nigeria, and when I last went there that one was about to retire,

917
so there is a big field there for their activities. Perhaps we could help them with probation officers and child welfare officers.
Then a word on the Cameroons. This is one of the difficult problems. I think that the settlement of this case is the question mark, so far as Nigeria is concerned. The situation is that next year both the Northern and Southern Cameroons will have a plebiscite in which they will have to opt for association either with Nigeria or with the Republic of Cameroon. Those are the two choices they will have. I think it is quite possible that, for sentimental reasons, they may decide to opt for the Cameroon, although I personally think that they would be well advised to opt for Nigeria. But it is a matter for the people to decide: it is nothing to do with us and we cannot decide that. But from October I until the plebiscite in February next year, and until the arrangements are made for them to join one or the other, the United Kingdom and this Parliament will remain responsible. A battalion of our troops will go into the Cameroons, and the Nigerian troops will come out on October 1 or thereabouts, so we shall have a real civil and military responsibility for the Cameroons as from October 1 until they make up their minds and arrangements are made for them to carry on with one or other of the neighbouring countries.
I should like to ask the noble Earl—because this is vitally important—whether our information services are ready for the change. In the past they have not been so much on their toes that we can assume they are. If they are not, we shall probably find the usual charges of colonialism levelled against us from the Soviet Union and other sources, not only from our foes but from our friends. So I think it very important that the information services of the Government should put over to the world at large, and not least to other African territories, that this change is brought about by reason of the status of the Cameroons; that it is not a matter for which we wish to take the onus but is inherent because these are trust territories and our respon-
918
sibility as the trusteeship authority. Until they decide where they are going, we shall have an expensive, onerous and, I cannot help feeling, a very troublesome charge. I think that should be made quite clear to the world at large. This is not colonialism; this is rather a difficult and expensive and troublesome charge, which we will carry out to the best of our ability, but we do not expect to have mud thrown at us while we do it. I hope that until February the Nigerian Government will do all they can to help the Cameroons, because there are sometimes slight difficulties over customs and all that sort of thing which I think, with a little tact, could be avoided: there need be no friction over things like customs duties. A lot of the trade and produce of the Cameroons has to go out through Nigeria.
I should like to express on behalf of the Peers on these Benches our gratitude for the gift of a site on the Marina, the most expensive part of Lagos, and for the contribution which the new Government are making towards our High Commissioner's residence. I think that Mr. Head's appointment is an interesting one, and I hope that he will do well there. As a former Cabinet Minister, he will not only have the authority and experience necessary, but also be able to guide anyone who comes to him for information on the very many points with which a new country invariably has to cope. I should like just to give him a word of advice, though possibly he will not need it. In my experience, the West Africans love a joke and love laughter; they are very happy people and very merry people, and anyone dealing with them should try to cultivate a warm and genial approach. We on these Benches trust that the new independent State of Nigeria will have every possible good fortune and that her relationship with the United Kingdom and with the rest of the Commonwealth will be a happy and a close one. We believe that Nigeria has a manifest destiny in the world and that she will take a leading place in Africa as a democratic and progressive State.

THE OVERSEA CIVIL SERVICE
4.5 p.m.
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, it may be convenient if I now make this statement about Her Majesty's Overseas Civil Service. My right honourable friend the Colonial Secretary has had under consideration the position of Her Majesty's Oversea Civil Service. In Colonial No. 306, issued in 1954, Her Majesty's Government undertook that when a territory becomes self-governing pensions and conditions of service would be safeguarded, and compensation would be paid to officers suffering premature retirement. These undertakings have been fully observed and have gone far to protect the existing interests of serving officers. But they do not take effect until self-government, and they afford inadequate inducement to officers to continue to serve.
It is a direct responsibility of Her Majesty's Government to maintain stable administration throughout the years of change preceding self-government while pressing forward with the recruitment and training of officers from the local population. We must also do what we can, fully consistent of course with the independence of the new States, to encourage the desire of officers to continue to serve overseas.
Subject to Parliamentary approval of the expenditure involved, Her Majesty's Government have decided to offer to take over, where necessary, in Colonial Territories—and in fact it is necessary in almost all of them—the inducement pay and allowances of overseas staff broadly on the lines of the arrangements followed in most technical assistance schemes. I should make it clear that, although financial agreements have been reached with Nigeria and Sierra Leone in the light of their coming independence, I should also propose to offer them agreements on these lines. Her Majesty's Government also intend these arrangements to apply to the High Commission Territories.
The effect of these proposals will be that, while the local Government would continue to bear the local rates of salary and other conditions of service, Her Majesty's Government would bear the cost of the supplementary pay and allowances which prove to be necessary
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for overseas officers. The details of such a scheme, which will be radical and costly, can be finalised only after consultation with Colonial Governments. This consultation will be pursued during the Recess and when Parliament reassembles it is hoped to present a White Paper containing full details of the scheme and of the expenditure involved.
These new arrangements (which would not cease with independence) are evidence that Her Majesty's Government continue to attach primary importance to the maintenance of an efficient Oversea Service and to the necessity of ensuring stable government in the Colonial Territories during these difficult years.
4.9 p.m.
LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCE: My Lords, it is not possible, of course, having just heard this statement, to make any final pronouncement with regard to it from these Benches. But it would appear to me, and I think to my colleagues, that what the Government are proposing to do in this case is sound and desirable. This problem has arisen in a very large number of cases in the past, and is likely to arise in many more in the future. My knowledge of it is derived, to a certain extent, from our somewhat similar experience in India and Pakistan.
The position, broadly, is this: the rate of pay that it is necessary to give to civil servants in an overseas territory in order to attract someone from this country, who has a great number of additional expenses to bear, is very much greater than that necessary to attract a local person, who would be serving in his own country. Therefore the point arises that when there is a change from colonial status, or from the status of a member of the Empire, and we hand over to a country which is obtaining independence, there arise two different standards of payment which have to be taken into account. There is the standard which is suitable and adequate for local persons who are giving, inside their own country, service which is patriotic and, at the same time, adequately remunerated. That standard is not high enough for persons who are patriotically working outside the confines of their native land to help guide the Ship of State in a Colonial Territory now become independent.

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That is the problem, as I understand it—and I think the noble Earl will agree that I have stated the matter correctly. That is the problem with which Her Majesty's Government have been seeking to deal in this general regulation, and it is now going to be applied to this country of Nigeria. I think it is a thoroughly sound plan. Broadly, it amounts to this: that the newly independent territory will pay to our civil servants (when I say "our" civil servants, I mean their civil servants who come from this country) the local; and Her Majesty's Government, very generously, I think, have agreed on behalf of the British taxpayers to pay the additional sum necessary to attract persons from this country to assist in the government of that new country, provided they are wanted and provided they are willing to stay.
It involves a generous contribution. It is one of those things which the noble Viscount and I were discussing yesterday with regard to the payments that we in this country have to make because of our position in the world as a mother of the newly independent States. As it works out in this case, I am afraid that we may have to face quite a considerable sum, but that it is eminently worth it I think your Lordships will agree. It is worth it because we want to avoid entirely the kind of thing which is happening in the Congo at the present time. We in this country have prided ourselves on introducing these different, undeveloped countries to a civilised and fully responsible democracy. We have prided ourselves on training them carefully for the job; and in order that that training may be completed it is necessary for some of our principal administrators to stay in the country after independence, if the new independent State and the individuals concerned concur in such a position. It is because I feel the importance of that, and because I recognise the importance of it in other places, that I, for my part—and I think those behind me on these Benches would endorse what I say—support the proposals, costly as they may prove to the Exchequer of this country.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I should like to welcome this statement and the plan which it envisages, in general terms, of course; the details we
922
shall see later in the White Paper. May I ask the noble Earl not to weary in well doing? I hope that he will carry on with other forms of technical assistance which they will also need.
4.15 p.m.
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, as one who has been a great nuisance to the noble Earl lately on this subject, I should like briefly to thank him for a most promising statement; and also to congratulate him, because I know, as I think we all do, that he himself has had to put a great deal of thought and consideration into the matter. We must all hope that it will do much to restore confidence to a splendid and, above all, dedicated service, and we thank the noble Earl very much for his statement. Not only does it promise justice to individuals, which is important enough, but also, by encouraging officers to remain on in service, doing their magnificent work, it promises to help the continuance of sound government and security in territories that are now assuming their own responsibilities.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether this covers scientific, medical and technical civil servants in the territories concerned?
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, may I add my voice to the congratulations offered to the noble Earl himself, and also to his right honourable friend the Colonial Secretary, because, as your Lordships know, I have been interested in this subject for some time. At the same time, I should also like to congratulate those Back Benchers in another place, and also here, who have been pressing the Government for a matter of years on this subject. I think that the statement we have heard is very satisfactory, but there are one or two questions arising from it which I should like to ask the noble Earl now. He has said that Her Majesty's Government will find the difference between the local rates and the necessary inducement pay and allowances. I wonder whether that includes the increased rate of pension which must obviously arise from the inducement rates and allowances; or is the higher pension payable to these civil servants on retirement going to be borne by the independent territories?

923
Another question is this. He has said, to our great satisfaction, that this will apply to Sierra Leone, which is about to receive a new Constitution. I wonder whether there is any going back on the present arrangements made with Nigeria, for example. And what about Somaliland? I know that Somaliland is no longer a member of the Commonwealth, but does that preclude us from making a similar arrangement with her? She has just as much need of our beneficial advice and technical and administrative assistance as any other country which has been previously under our administration.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl if he can say whether this scheme is retrospective, in the sense that it will apply to people who have not waited for the extra inducement but have gone out and are serving in the capacity which the noble Earl has in mind? I may say that I have a personal interest in this. My son has actually gone out in such a capacity, and if this applies to people like him, as I think it should, it would be welcome indeed and would be a proper reward for those people who did not wait for the inducement.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, not long ago a Committee of Conservative Peers and Members of the Commons, under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, produced a pamphlet about the Commonwealth called, The Wind of Change. I was a humble member of that Committee, and this was one of our strongest demands. I am glad to see that Her Majesty's Government feel it possible to implement it, although it will be very costly. I only wish that the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, were here to-day to see the fruits of his labours.
LORD TWINING: My Lords, may I also thank the noble Earl for his statement? As an ex-member of Her Majesty's Oversea Civil Service, I always keep a jealous eye on the interest of the Service, and I very much welcome this statement before Parliament rises. I should like to reserve my judgment on whether the statement is as good as it sounds until
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we have been able to study the White Paper, but I feel sure that it will give new heart to members of the Service, where the morale has been falling during the last few months. I thank the noble Earl.
4.20 p.m.
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I am not surprised, but it is very welcome to hear the pleasure which this statement has given to the House in general. While it is good of my noble friend Lord De La Warr to say something kind about me, this is no credit to me but to everybody who has been working on this highly important subject. I should like to point out to the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, that this will apply not only to countries which will be independent in the near future but also to all territories which are colonial territories at the present time. That means that the burden of overseas additions that have to be found to ensure that it is an attractive service for those coming in from overseas will be the responsibility of Her Majesty's Government rather than of the colonial territories themselves.
In regard to the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, I think that the answer is, Yes; but I shall have to check that. In reply to the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, clearly in regard to some pants we must wait for the White Paper and consultations with various colonial territories, but I would stress that this applies to Nigeria, if they want it, and to Sierra Leone as well. I do not think it applies to British Somaliland, the reason being that we made a settlement with them on a generous financial basis to cover all these matters. I have noted what the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, said about this scheme being retrospective. That may raise difficulties, but I will look into this, as well as into the other points raised. I would finish by saying that perhaps the noble Lords, Lord Pethick-Lawrence and Lord Twining, showed proper caution, but I am quite confident that their second thoughts will confirm their first—that this is a thoroughly sound and important scheme

NIGERIA INDEPENDENCE BILL
4.22 p.m.
Debate on Second Reading resumed.
LORD TWINING: My Lords, in resuming the debate on Nigeria, may I first say that we must not let the somewhat prosaic language., which of necessity appears in the Bill, obscure the exciting and historic event which it brings about. We are becoming accustomed to new Constitutions which give our former colonial territories self-government or independence, but this measure is in a class by itself. It is an example of enlightened colonialism forging into a great nation the peoples of varied backgrounds, languages, customs and religions. Nigeria has been fortunate in having had at its helm many notable and far-sighted colonial administrators—Lord Lugard, Sir Donald Cameron, Lord Milverton, Sir John Macpherson and Sir James Robertson, to mention but a few.
But all their great work would not have brought about such a happy result had it not been for the Nigerians themselves. When one meets Nigerians, one cannot but be impressed by their poise and dignified bearing, which are manifestations of their self-respect and self-confidence. They have produced not only leaders but statesmen, who have approached the goal of independence with a marked sense of responsibility. Unlike the leaders in some other countries, they have been in no undue hurry to obtain independence on the crest of a wave of emotion. They have shown restraint and studied the problem before them, have been willing to take advice and have weighed matters carefully before reaching a decision. The result is, as the present Bill states, the attainment of Nigeria to fully responsible status within the Commonwealth.
Internally they have had the good sense to adopt a federal form of Government, best suited to their particular circumstances. I am sure that your Lordships will be particularly glad to endorse what has already been said about the importance which they attach to law. Not only is there to be a Federal Supreme Court of Appeal but beyond that there will be a right of appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. This respect for law has been recognised and
926
underlined by Her Majesty's Government in their choice of the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack to head the British delegation to the independence celebrations. I had the pleasure and privilege of entertaining the noble and learned Viscount when he came to Dar-es-Salaam to open the High Count. Despite the heat and humid temperature, be-wigged and be-gowned and be-pursed, he carried out the ceremony with the utmost dignity, which impressed not only his legal brethren but also the population generally.
I am glad that the Nigerian Government have expressed the wish to retain the officers of the Overseas Service, and I hope that the arrangements, of which we have been told this afternoon by the noble Earl, will mean that a large number of the best officers will remain until such time as they have been replaced by local men, as this should surely see that the administrative standards, which are very high, will be maintained. The Nigerians have also made clear their realisation of the conditions required to attract capital and the "know-how" needed to develop the great potentialities of their country.
Many of us have grave doubts about where current events in Africa will lead to, but the future of Nigeria seems to be assured, and this new nation can stand four-square as an example to the rest of Africa and demonstrate to the rest of the world that Africans are capable of running their own affairs. Perhaps the greatest lesson to be learned is the importance of a period of preparation.
I do not intend to go into the details of the Bill, but there are two points I should like to raise. The first is: what is the position of the Congo Basin Treaty, now that several territories affected by it will become independent? In my experience, it is quite outmoded and should be abrogated or just left to die. I believe that Nigeria is subject to its terms, which are discriminatory. The second point is the position of the accumulated statutory sinking funds on Nigerian loans which have been raised on the London market. Presumably they would be administered by the Nigerian Government according to law, but it is an important point which may arise in the country's future as regards creditworthiness.

927
I am sure that there are a great many people in Africa to-day whose eyes will be turning to Nigeria to see how this great new country progresses. What happens there may have a very powerful influence on affairs throughout the whole continent. I am sure that we all wish the people of Nigeria well in their adventure. We want them to feel that we shall respond to the friendship they have offered us, and that they will find that to be a member of our Commonwealth in terms of equality has advantages of which they hardly dream.
4.30 p.m.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: My Lords, to-day we are taking part in the birth of a nation. The Birth of a Nation was, in fact, the name of a very early film, which noble Lords may have seen. But to-day, this is no cinema projection, no figment of the imagination and no celluloid story that we are seeing; it is an exciting piece of real history—the bringing into being of a great Federation of ancient African States, old in history and tradition, but new as a State; self-governing, independent and, as we are all delighted to hear, members of the British Commonwealth. This is a great and historic moment, and it is, indeed. as the noble Lord, Lord Twining, has said, an exciting time. We come, all of us, to convey to this State our best wishes.
I have not the long experience of many Members of your Lordships' House in connection with Africa, and I rise only for one reason—namely, because there is one aspect of the development of West Africa that I have watched and in which I have had a close personal interest. It was in 1943–44, right in the middle of the war, when flying bombs and other horrors were descending on us daily, that the Colonial Secretary of the day, the Right Honourable Oliver Stanley, looking to the future, appointed a Commission on Higher Education in West Africa, over which my late husband, Walter Elliot, presided and which came to be known as the Elliot Commission. It was, in fact, the first Commission to have African members. There were three: Mr. Korsah, as he then was (now Sir Aku Korsah, K.B.E., Lord Chief Justice of Ghana), the Rev. Ransome Kuti, Headmaster of Abeokuta Grammar School, and Dr. Taylor Cummings, the
928
Minister of Health for Freetown, Sierra Leone. I can well remember the discussion and the many talks we had, and. when the Commission came to stay with us in Scotland, wondering whether one should at that period put primary and secondary education before university education, and what would be the position of the technical schools.
Sixteen years is a short time, judged by European standards. But sixteen years in Africa is a long time, for so much has happened so rapidly in those sixteen years. It is more like a century of time and changes, because everything moves so fast over there. But let it not be forgotten that the United Kingdom was planning for the independence of the colonial territories when the bombs were crashing on London and the House of Commons was in ruins. These things should not be forgotten in the turbulent situation of the African continent to-day.
Sixteen years ago the Elliot Commission recommended that, both in the Gold Coast (as it then was) and in Nigeria, there should be fully-fledged university colleges, and that Fourah Bay in Sierra Leone should also grow to this status. It was a bold plan to recomment three universities in an area where the tsetse-fly and the mosquito were still the biggest enemies of the people, as well as, of course, being their biggest protection against European invasion. Only sixteen years ago there were also "doubting Thomases," both in the Commission and in the Colonial Office, who, looking at the figures of students and teachers, thought that three universities were not necessary and that one would do the job. But the majority of the Commission, and, most important of all, the three African members, signed the Majority Report; and after some hesitation the Government accepted it, and three universities were provided: one in Accra, at Achimota; one at Ibadan, in Nigeria, and one in Sierra Leone. I well remember the doubts there were as to whether there would be enough professors or enough students; and in Nigeria the University had to be carved, so to speak, out of the bush.
These doubts had some foundation. There were, in fact, as recorded in the Report of the Elliot Commission (which I have here in my hand) only eighteen

929
students in the Higher College at Yaba in Nigeria in 1934; by 1940 the admissions had reached only 36; and in Great Britain, in February, 1945, there were only 193 Nigerian students;—that is, a total for Nigeria of 229. To-day, the University College at Ibadan, aided by the Commonwealth Development and Welfare Fund to the extent of £2·2 million, has six faculties—arts, science, agriculture, medicine, education and engineering and a department of extramural studies; and a faculty of law will start next year. Only yesterday I had the pleasure of entertaining to luncheon in this House the Vice-Chancellor of the university, who told me that there were 1,600 qualified applicants entered for 300 places in the current session of the university term. In 1958 there were 1,150 students in the university, and in addition, between 1958 and 1959 there were 3,585 students from Nigeria in the United Kingdom and Eire, making an increase in thirteen years from 229 to 4,735. Here, I think your Lordships will agree, is really a "wind of change". Furthermore, I read the other day in a pamphlet about Nigeria that there is to be another university in the Eastern Region, 45 miles from Enugu, and that it is hoped that classes will start in September, 1960.
Here is a story of which Nigeria, and we, too, in Britain, can be proud, since in 1944 it required great foresight to see that the future independence of both the Gold Coast and Nigeria would come so quickly, and that the need for trained people to take the responsible jobs would be so vital to the success of these new States. I believe that the University of Ghana, in Accra, is as successful as the one at Ibadan.
The generosity of the Nigerian Government to-day has already been mentioned by various noble Lords, and I should like to add a personal note which I am sure your Lordships will feel is a testimony to our efforts to help Nigeria. I received from the Department of Education in Nigeria a cheque for £500 for the Memorial Fund which has been subscribed by friends of my late husband, who on this occasion was simply the leader of a Commission recommending a policy—since carried out by Parliament—a policy which has been so well worth while.
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If I have spoken about education in the debate, it is because it is the only part of Nigerian development of which I have some first-hand knowledge. But I should like to say a few words, if I may, about the future. This vast country now becoming an independent Federation has set out on what a distinguished Scottish writer, F. R. S. Oliver, called the Government of men, "The Endless Adventure". What can we do, who are also engaged on the same adventure, to help this great country along? The statement which the noble Earl, Lord Perth, has just made with reference to the future of the oversea service of the Colonial Office is most encouraging, because I am sure we can help in money and in trained men and women, and particularly with men and women with technical training—technicians such as medical, veterinary and agricultural experts, engineers, electricians and many other trades, nurses, teachers and other professional people. These are the people whom we can help to provide, if the circumstances and the arrangements about pay and conditions are right; and I think that what the noble Earl has said is going to be of great help, because these people working in an African country know some current language, understand the African people and the various problems of the country, and will be able to put across, as it were, medical, veterinary or agricultural reforms by effective persuasion of the ordinary people which I understand from those who have served out there is really half the battle.
Other countries such as the United States and the U.S.S.R. have more money and more men with technical training perhaps, but I do not think they have the same understanding approach to simple people that we have. We have fully qualified doctors (the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, who was here a moment ago, was talking about that), veterinary surgeons, engineers, agricultural experts, who are used to working in African conditions and can probably talk at least one African language. I hope that these people will be able to provide the "know-how" for these new States, because it is on the success of the way they handle this development that their future depends. Also, as one noble Lord has said, quite rightly, to get those people

931
to stay on under conditions of some uncertainty will not be easy; and if the Service could be based here—if it could be a colonial service based here in this country—and people seconded for jobs, so that they would know that when those jobs were finished and they came back they would still be looked after as ordinary civil servants are, I think it would make an enormous difference.
I know that it would cost money—it has been said that it will cost money—but British engineers, agriculturists, doctors, scientists, geologists and others, through the work they are doing, would spread our influence and our ideas of a democratic Government just as well, in my opinion, as people from the British Council or from Information Departments. They could give practical help and encouragement, and Nigerians studying agriculture would in all probability be interested in the methods, and so on, which we could show to them. They might even wish to have agricultural machinery from this country. It would indeed, be a benefit to us, because I believe that it would enlarge our trade with those nations, and be of great use to both sides. It seems very sad and wasteful when skilled men and women have to leave a new country solely because they are part of the ex-colonial Power, when in fact, with a change in the organisation, technical assistance could still be available for these new countries should they so wish.
My Lords, this is a great occasion. Nigeria is now a twentieth century State with access to all the tools of the twentieth century—comets, jets, television, telecommunications, railways, roads, tractors, motor cars, drugs, oil, coal and machinery of all kinds. These are the fruits of the Industrial Revolution—the machines that bring a higher standard of living and are the envy of all the people who do not possess them. What will they do with them? That is the great question. I have great faith in these people. They have shown great wisdom in coming together and agreeing this Federal Constitution. They have shown great wisdom in wishing to remain within the Commonwealth. I hope that we shall show wisdom in finding the next steps to help them, and to wish them Godspeed in this endless adventure, this adventure of government.
4.42 p.m.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, before I speak on the Nigerian Independence Bill, I hope the House will not take it amiss if, as a rather junior and humble Back-Bencher, I should, on behalf of the large number of similar ilk, express my congratulations and very good wishes to the noble Earl, Lord Home, on his appointment as Foreign Secretary. May I add that we thoroughly endorse everything that has been said about the noble Earl by the other distinguished noble Lords who have spoken. We have always found him kind, considerate, extraordinarily accessible, in spite of his many duties, and generous with very useful and wise advice. We hope and believe that we shall receive the same consideration and wisdom from the new Leader, whom we congratulate on his appointment.
I am going to speak very briefly on the Nigerian Independence Bill, because I feel that I know a good deal less about Nigeria than most other noble Lords who have spoken and are going to speak this afternoon. If I speak at all, it is because of my general interest in Africa, in the African sub-continent south of the Sahara. I should like to speak, perhaps, rather on behalf of that part of Africa which I know so well, Central Africa. We have had speakers, and we are to have others, who know West Africa very well, and also East Africa. Perhaps I, with my practical experience of Central Africa, may express a few words on this happy occasion. I cannot, of course, speak authoritatively for the Federal Government, or even for the people of the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland; but, knowing well their mental attitude, I can assure your Lordships with confidence that all the people of the Federation, whatever the colour of their skins, heartily welcome the independence of Nigeria. To prove that, if it were necessary, I can remind your Lordships of the fact that a diplomatic representative has been appointed from the Federation to the Federal Government of Nigeria, and that that Government have been willing to accept that representative.
I have been to Lagos once and to the Federal territory, although not to the other Regions. While there I met several representatives from other Regions, and I have met them also when they have

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been in this country—not always leaders, but sometimes more humble representatives studying here. I have been impressed always by one characteristic, and that is the innate common sense—perhaps I would call it the plain common sense—of the Nigerian leaders and their people; the common sense to realise what is practicable and what is not practicable at any particular moment; the common sense to understand what would be, and will be, practicable in the future, and perhaps, above all, the common sense to show toleration and good will and to have patience, and the common sense to want to learn. That is really what the noble Lord, Lord Twining, was saying in rather a different manner in his speech.
If there is any lesson to be learned from the independence of Nigeria—and we have all, not only to-day but last week, been drawing lessons from the independence of Cyprus and the Congo, and turning these matters over in our minds—it is that this great variety of tribes could never have been grouped into three regions, self-governing under one central, independent Government, without that virtue of common sense. That is a lesson which I am sure must be learned and inwardly digested, not so much by ourselves as by the Africans themselves in East and Central Africa, where they are still dependent territories, and by the Europeans in those territories, I do not forget at this tragic moment my friends in Southern Rhodesia. I would ask them to digest the lesson and experience of Nigeria, and it is plainly a lesson of common sense.
By saying this, I do not wish in any way to belittle the great achievements of the people who have gone from this country to help Nigeria, starting, of course, with Lugard, who set up the experiment of indirect rule, creating a native administration, right down to the present holder, Sir James Robertson. The only other one I wish to mention is the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, who is to speak after me, because he cannot very well praise himself, and I should like to do it for him. As the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, said, he was the proposer of the Constitution of 1946, which really brought together the system of native administration. Divorced entirely, as it was, from the Central
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Government, with the Central Legislative Council, and welded the two into the unity which we now know. His good work was carried on by Sir John Macpherson. Among others to whom I would pay tribute are the Colonial Secretary of that time, Mr. Creech Jones, whose speech on the Nigerian Independence Bill in the other place read so impressively, and last, but not least, that great Colonial Secretary whose five years of office have brought Nigeria to the very threshold of independence, Mr. Alan Lennox-Boyd, to whom we can now refer with great pride and satisfaction as, "our noble friend".
Finally, in wishing every success in the future to the Nigerian leaders and their people, I should add that I have every confidence and, indeed, expectation that they will show to many other African States, both those already independent and those not yet independent, the way to peace, prosperity and happiness, which are the fruits only of genuine freedom—not only the freedom of a nation and a great nation at that, but the freedom of the individuals who make up that nation, living under the rule of law.
4.50 p.m.
LORD MILVIERTON: My Lords, in the twelve years during which I have had the honour of being a Member of your Lordships' House, there is no occasion when I have risen with greater pleasure to speak than now in rising to support this Bill. It has not only my unqualified support but my confident belief that it marks a turning point in the history of Africa. For, my Lords, this is a dream come true. I think there are few people in this country who realise that fifteen years ago Northern Nigeria had no connection with the South other than through the Governor. The Legislative Council had no members from the North of Nigeria, which comprised more than half of the population which we now know as Nigeria, and laws passed in the Legislative Council did not apply the North unless the Governor chose to apply them over his signature. I need hardly say that it was not quite so autocratic a rule as that, because the Governor always consulted the leading chiefs and other leaders of the North before he did any such thing. It illustrates what a long way has been traversed in so short a

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time. It was only in 1947 that this Constitution which embodied the North in the Government of Nigeria came into force.
I do not want to weary the House with too much in the way of reminiscent history, but in order to understand and really appreciate what has happened today and what this Bill is the embodiment of, I think it is worth while just for a moment to consider what has happened. This achievement of Nigeria was not accidental; it has taken two generations to produce. Lord Lugard, of course, was the founder of Nigeria. Those of us who had the privilege of meeting that great man, whose name ranks in history only with that of Lyautey and Stamford Raffles, realise that Nigeria was singularly fortunate that he was the man who was in charge at that early time.
If your Lordships will pardon a personal note, may I say that when I was going to Nigeria in 1943 I had a note from Lord Lugard, who was living at b Abinaer, and he said, "If you think I can be of the slightest use to you, I will come up to London at any time you like." I naturally jumped at the opportunity, and I had the privilege of hearing him enunciate what he thought were the principles which would make Nigeria the nation we see to-day. He said, "You are going to Nigeria at a crucial time, and it falls to your lot to be there, and what you do in Nigeria may possibly affect the whole history of Africa."
At the time I wrote down my impression of the basic principle which Lugard wished his successors to follow, and it was just this, if I may be allowed to read what I then wrote:
"He was confronted with the difficult setting of an artificial unity which existed only on the map. His problem was to build a system which would allow organic growth and make the unity originally superimposed from outside into a living thing which might progress from varying stages of adolescence to adult nationhood. If I may be permitted the observation, Lord Lugard never allowed principles to become divorced from practice, and he held always before him the ideal of natural growth."
I think that that embodies the great truth of the difference between Nigeria and much of the rest of Africa to-day. Nigeria does represent a successful attempt to have a natural growth towards its independence as a nation.
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To pass on, at the time when, in 1943, I was sworn in in Nigeria, I remember making in my speech a remark which came in for a lot of criticism. I suggested then that the motto for Nigeria should be "Unity in Diversity", and a lot of people said how little they thought of that as a remark for a Governor who was taking over. But I think to-day it is realised how true that motto was and has become. Over these years, as I have tried to explain, Nigeria was a network of tribes caught up in an economic web of British control, and out of that a nation had to grow. The secret of the progress lies in various lines of communications of every kind, material, social and economic; and, above all things, there was, in my opinion, a great war-time growth of a feeling of unity, and the person largely responsible for that was the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, who came out as Resident Minister there. He threw that enormous dynamic energy of his into the idea of getting not only Nigeria but the rest of the West Coast—but par-particularly Nigeria—to feel that this was a common cause which united us all. He was remarkably successful in that effort, and I think a lot of the modern unity which is felt in Nigeria owes its origin to that effort of his to create it for the war effort.
Of course, he had that friendly relationship with the chiefs, the leaders of Nigeria, which we have seen reproduced in recent years by Mr. Lennox-Boyd. I well remember, as an instance of that friendly humour which governed their relations, a dinner which I gave in Kaduna in those years to the leading chiefs of the North. At the end of the dinner I offered the Sultan of Sokoto one of those groundnut sweets with butterscotch mixed in it, and he said "No". I said, "Do you not like them?" and he said "Yes, I am very fond of them, but I promised Lord Swinton I would keep all the groundnuts for the war effort." That trivial story illustrates the friendly relationship there was between the Resident Minister and the others.
Another thing which perhaps is overlooked if I may be allowed to say so, is that the success of this development in Nigeria owes a tremendous amount to the fact that it is the result of what I believe is called a bipartisan policy. In

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any case, Nigeria has been singularly fortunate, in that all Parties in another place and here have supported the same thing and have always had the unity here which they were anxious to impose upon Nigeria, too. The first of those Constitutions came originally to Mr. Oliver Stanley. That was at the end of the year 1944, and the next year, before any final arrangements had been made, another Government came in and the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, and Mr. Creech Jones took it over. But there was no noticeable difference. They carried on. They believed in it just as Mr. Oliver Stanley believed in it. And so it had the inimitable advantage of the support of every Secretary of State of whatever Party. Following on that, after Mr. Creech Jones, the people who rendered great service to Nigeria in its development were Lord Chandos and especially Mr. Lennox-Boyd, whose personal charm and tact and active friendship will never be forgotten in Nigeria, as also in most of the rest of the Colonial Empire where he was very well known.
In the days of Sir John Macpherson, whose chief secretary, Sir Hugh Foot, collaborated with him, the 1947 Constitution was found to be successful, and further progress occurred much faster than had ever been envisaged. Finally, we have Sir James Robertson. It would be quite impossible to exaggerate the services which have been rendered to Nigeria by the present Governor-General there; his robust wisdom and his capacity for inspiring trust have been very great. I visited Nigeria about eighteen months ago and went all over it. I was immensely impressed by the fact that everywhere in Nigeria he was regarded not only with trust but with affection and respect, and it is impossible to exaggerate what is owed to him.
A glance around Africa to-day throws into relief the stability of Nigeria, administratively, politically and economically. It has highly capable men at the top—the Sardauna of Sokoto, Chief Awolowo, Dr. Azikiwe, and last, but certainly not least, the Federal Prime Minister, Sir Abubakar. If ever there was a wise statesman, it is Sir Abubakar. My personal opinion is that he is the greatest statesman that Africa has yet produced, and I think that Nigeria is fortunate to have him, with his calm philosophy and his deep loyalty to the
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idea that Nigeria as a nation has a great destiny to fulfil. These Ministers are assisted by groups of other Ministers and African officers of considerable competence, and the Africanisation of the Services has been proceeding apace. Of course, there is still urgent need of more and more qualified men and women in all branches of the political, social and economic life of the country. They are being produced—not as fast as one would like, but the rate is increasing.
Equally, what gives one confidence in Nigeria is that it is a system of balances. You have the Northern Region, predominently Moslem with all that goes with that. There, there is a group of men at the top who, by long tradition, have learned to exercise authority wisely. You have a people who are trained to respect authority. I have always urged upon them that probably the greatest contribution that is to-day being made to Nigeria comes from the North, which is sometimes said to be rather backward because educationally that has been the case. But the great gift which they have to bring as their contribution to Nigerian unity is this respect for authority, which, as we know, is sorely needed when a country becomes independent and when those who have previously questioned the laws find themselves the makers of them. The progress in the last ten years in Nigeria, as I can personally testify from my visit of eighteen months ago, is absolutely astounding, in every aspect of life.
Before I conclude I would mention just one point about the Cameroons. We have heard tonight what is the choice before them in February, 1961—either to be independent with Nigeria or independent with the French Cameroons Republic. Those of us who know the country hope that the choice they will make will be to be the fourth region of Nigeria. The natural destiny for them seems to be that the Northern Cameroons should go administratively in the same sort of group as the North, and that the Southern Cameroons should find their affinity with the South. But the Cameroons Development Corporation has been absorbed by the Colonial Development Corporation. As the person who was responsible for the creation of the Cameroons Development Corporation, I can only say that I

939
hope that the Colonial Development Corporation will be given the means to make it the success which the Nigerian Government made of the Cameroons Development Corporation, where, apart from profits which were ploughed back into the business, all other profits were used for the welfare of the Cameroons people.
In conclusion, I can only say that I wish the Government and the people of Nigeria all the success and prosperity that surely awaits them in their future—a great future that will loom large in the history of Africa, where their leadership is sorely needed and will, [I am sure, be welcomed.
5.7 p.m.
LORD SAYE AND SELE: My Lords, I have listened with the greatest interest, approval and pride to the whole of the debate this afternoon, and I have heard many well-earned appreciations and eulogies of the Civil Service's work in Nigeria. But throughout the whole afternoon I have not hoard one word about the Armed Forces of the Crown, who have also had their duties in that country and have performed them in an admirable and satisfactory way. I hope that those Armed Forces of the Crown, who are there and will also find themselves out of a job to the same extent as the Civil Service, will be treated in the same generous way as the Civil Service, who so well deserve it. That is a point which may well be borne in mind. The Armed Forces are sometimes left a little behind in these days of peace, and I hope that in this case they will be remembered.
5.8 p.m.
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, what could be a happier task than to wind up the Second Reading of a Bill making provision for the attainment by Nigeria of a fully responsible status within the Commonwealth? It is a very great and special pleasure for me to do this, because I have been fortunate in that I attended the last three Constitutional Conferences on the future of Nigeria—in 1957, 1958 and again this year. If I may, I should like to recall one or two of the things that struck me at these Conferences. In particular, there were two that stand out.
One was the qualities of the Nigerians who took part in them. These might
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be summed up, I think, in the gift of laughter and in the real statesmanship they showed. The second was that, as these Conferences developed, so one saw a growing sense of the reality of Nigeria, and of Nigeria as one unit and as a nation. That, of course, is due to all those present at the Conferences; but in particular I recall the Federal Prime Minister, Sir Abubakar; the Sardauna of Sokoto, Premier of the Northern Region; Dr. Azikiwe, Premier of the Eastern Region and now Speaker of the Federal Senate; and lastly, Chief Awolowo, Premier of the Western Region and now Leader of the Federal Opposition. They played a leading part. It was interesting to see their attitude when at these Conferences points of particular interest to a region, as opposed to the country as a whole, arose; for their loyalties were Nigerian rather than regional whenever there were such questions as the power of the police or the power of the purse. There we owe a special debt to Sir Jeremy Raisman and his Commission who went out and did such fine work on taxation and so forth in relation to the Regions and the Federal Government. Whenever questions like these arose, and the debates were long and difficult, in the end these four statesmen would get together, and it was always what was best for the nation and for a strong central Nigeria that won. That is proof of the real statesmanship they all showed.
I have been fortunate, also, in seeing and hearing many reports on other Nigerians who have been present at many of the Commonwealth Conferences, great and small, on various matters over the last few years. Always one gets the same story. Always one hears and sees the crucial and valuable part played by the Nigerian delegations. I feel that this promises well for the rôle which they are soon to play in the world.
Your Lordships may say that that is all very well—that the people are good material, and that there are nearly 40 million of them, and ask, "But what of the country?" You may wonder whether the country itself can help them to play the great rôle which we believe is to be theirs. Last August I visited the country, for all too short a time. I was there for nearly one month and travelled around. I saw something of its riches

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and some of the things mentioned by the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, like groundnuts and palm oil. They have rich tropical land which can produce in great quantity the kind, of things which should be grown there, like vegetable oils, cocoa, cotton and rubber. There are also things like tin, and beasts of many kinds—and, most exciting and importantly, over the last eighteen months they have struck mineral oil in considerable quantity, so that from that angle all looks well.
Then there is the industrial future of the country, the industrial future of a people who have shown themselves skilful and ready to learn. As the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hills-borough, has pointed out, they have taken advantage of such things as the co-operative movement; and I am confident that they have a great future before them, not only by reason of their people, but also by reason of their country itself.
The Bill, as your Lordships know, sets out to give independence, but the four Constitutions—the Federal Constitution and the three Regional Constitutions—will be passed by Orders in Council. I believe it might be worth while to touch for a moment on these Constitutions because there are one or two points which are particularly worth making. They will have in them certain entrenched clauses, clauses which can be changed, in the case of the Federal Constitution, only if two-thirds of both Federal Houses and, in addition, a two-thirds majority of both Houses of at least two of the Regions approve the change. These entrenched clauses are, therefore, pretty secure, and it would need a very substantial reason for them to be changed. Your Lordships may ask what is in these clauses, and I would say that they are the kind of things that we might wish to have enshrined in our Constitution, if we had one—for example, provision for the maximum life of a Legislature; the fact that Parliament has to meet at least once a year; and (a matter which the Nigerians were most anxious to ensure) that matters of the police, the Judiciary and the public service are all outside politics. All were determined upon that, and there they followed what they knew was our example which had grown up by tradition. In general, the whole tenor of the Constitutional talks was of this character.
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The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, asked one or two questions on the Cameroons. First, I would say that if the Northern or Southern Cameroons, or both, choose to join with Nigeria, we should welcome it; and provision is already made for the Southern Cameroons in that event to be a separate Region of the Federation. I believe that, as the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, says, we have very real responsibilities coming to us when we have to take over for the six months' period the running of that country. I will certainly bear in mind the point he has made—that we should tell the world once more that we are putting our troops there as the outcome of what the United Nations have themselves demanded. I would make one further point here. The Federal Government of Nigeria are also to help. They have agreed to provide administration in the Southern Cameroons and have agreed to continue, on an agency basis, to provide a good deal in the way of the ordinary day to day administrative work. We are very grateful for that.
It is particularly fitting that the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, should have spoken to-day because, knowing what her husband, Walter, did in those days, and seeing what has now come out of it, we realise What a great debt West Africa owes to him. Education is, of course, as important as anything in the development of the country. I would only say to her that the things about which she was worried—whether we should be able to provide assistance of one kind or another and do so free—have already been discussed and we have arranged a technical assistance agreement, so that Nigeria, if it so chooses, will be in a position to take advantage of what technicians we may be able to supply.
The noble Lord, Lord Twining, asked about Congo Basin treaties. Broadly, Nigeria is not affected by these. It is true that in one of the broad categories, on the humanitarian side, she is in part affected; but her territory does not come under them. Again, the noble Lord asked about the question of Nigerian loans. With him, I feel very strongly that there is no danger or likelihood of Nigeria in any way prejudicing her great standing and good credit, and I feel sure that she will follow a course similar to that followed by Malaya and Ghana who

943
have fully carried out their obligations in this respect.
One of the interesting things is to see how Nigeria has achieved her independence steadily and with a real sense of responsibility, and all that that means. Nigerians have never wavered in their trust or confidence or in their realisation that our main purpose was to bring them to nationhood and to give them all the benefit of our experience in government. It has been very right that many noble Lords to-day should have paid tribute to those who have helped towards this happy day.
I recall, naturally, the former Secretary of State for the Colonies, Mr. Alan Lennox-Boyd, who, happily, before too long is to join us here. I should also wish to pay tribute to the Governors; and I should like to start with the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, the last but two, because he did so much to build up, as others have said, as an architect of what we have to-day. After him came Sir John Macpherson, and to-day we have Sir James Robertson. I need say no more than that they are both Scots: I could give them no higher praise. With them, of course, we have to thank the whole of Her Majesty's Oversea Civil Service; and, as the noble Lord, Lord Saye and Sele, has very properly pointed out, there is also a debt due to the Armed Forces. One has only to look at the relationship there is in the building up of the Nigerian Army and in the Nigerian Navy to realise that the Forces have indeed played their natural rôle of friendship and help, as much as anybody else. I think that the arrangement which I was able to announce earlier to-day promises well for the continuing of the work that has been done in the past by the civil servants for as long as the Nigerian Government may wish it.
What of the future? I am sure that the world will be a richer place with Nigeria's joining as an independent member of the Commonwealth. I am sure that nobody was surprised, but, all the same, it is a great thing to remember the welcome that was unhesitatingly given at the Prime Ministers' last Conference by all the existing members of the Commonwealth to Nigeria's becoming a member. Our part in this is one of great pride, but as the noble Lord,
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Lord Hastings, pointed out, the real credit lies not with us but with the people of Nigeria themselves. There is to-day, my Lords, a great trust and a real friendship between us, and I know that we shall do all we can to ensure that this continues. We will try to give whatever help Nigeria may want of us, and give it willingly for that great nation in the making. Our certainty is in its progress, and our wish the ever-growing happiness of its people.
On Question, Bill read 2a; Committee negatived.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of July 14), Bill read 3a, and passed.

STATUTE LAW REVISION BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
ROAD TRAFFIC AND ROADS IMPROVEMENT BILL
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.

RESTRICTIONS ON HERBALISM
5.25 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY rose to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to certain restrictions which adversely affect the practice of herbalism in this country. The noble Marquess said: My Lords, before I come to the Question I have put upon the Paper, I should like very much, as an old Leader of the House and as a very old friend of Lord Home, to add one word of warm congratulation to those that have been showered on him this afternoon on the great post in the Government to which he has been appointed. The office of Foreign Secretary—I know it, because I worked in the Foreign Office—is one of the most fascinating that can fall to the lot of man. No one, I am sure, could fill it with more lustre than the noble Earl, and we are all—all who know him

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—very happy to think that it should have fallen to him to occupy it. It is no reflection on the noble Viscount, Lord Hail-sham, to say that we shall miss the noble Earl sadly as Leader of this House; but I have no doubt that, with his great attainments, the noble Viscount will be a very worthy successor to him in a post which his father filled with such notable distinction in earlier years, before most of us were Members of this House.
Now I should like to come immediately to the Question which is standing in my name. In doing so, it would perhaps be for the convenience of the House if I made a brief explanation of the issues raised by the Question. As the House will know, the science of herbalism is, if I may use so homely a phrase, almost as old as the hills. Its purpose, as it is defined in the Oxford Dictionary, is
"to study, collect, sell or administer herbs with medicinal properties".
It has been practised, I think, ever since primæval times, and there is no doubt at all that over the centuries it has given relief to many of the ills of humanity.
In this country two bodies, the Institute of Medical Herbalists, which was founded in the latter half of last century, and the Society of Herbalists, founded in 1927, exist to further the practice of herbalism. So far as I know—indeed, nothing. I think, has ever been suggested to the contrary—both of these societies are of a most respectable character; and until 1941 it was legal for them to sell scientifically prepared remedies to members of the public without any restriction on the processes used in the preparation of these remedies. Nor, so far as I know, were there at that time any complaints about their activities. But in 1941 the Government of the day, which was an all-Party Government, decided to bring in a Bill, called the Pharmacy and Medicines Bill, the purpose of which, to quote the Long Title of the Bill, was to
"prohibit certain advertisements relating to medical matters and to amend the law relating to medicines".
I was myself a member of that Government and, though I am ashamed to say it, I have very little recollection of the circumstances in which that Bill was introduced. I must, therefore, take my share of responsibility for its results, and
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it is for that reason that I have felt a special obligation to bring this matter before your Lordships.
To-day, my Lords, I am not concerned at all with the main purpose of the Pharmacies Act. No doubt the Government of the day had strong reasons for pressing forward with a measure of this kind at that crisis in our history, and for carrying it through at a speed which provoked a protest from my father, who was then a Member of this House, and other senior Members of the House. What I am concerned with is the effect that that legislation has had on the practice of herbalism. Clearly, the Government of the day did not think that it would have any deleterious effect. Indeed, I think that that was made quite clear by the Ministers in charge in both Houses of Parliament at the time of the passage of the Bill. But, my Lords, in fact—at least, by all accounts I have had—it has had a considerable effect and a very serious one.
For example, up to the date of the passage of the Bill herbalists could prescribe any individual remedies they wished to individual patients (that is to say, remedies which did not contravene any other legislation) just like any doctor can. And I would emphasise here that a duly qualified herbalist, if I may use such a phrase, to some extent combines the functions both of physician and of dispenser. But the Act of 1941 did, in practice, severely limit the scope of their prescriptions. Henceforth, under Section 12 (4) (a) of that Act, herbalists were precluded from selling to the general public
"any medicines except dried herbs and some proprietary medicines"—
thus, I am told, denying many of the remedial benefits which should be given by proper processing. If the remedy which the herbalist wished to prescribe came within the scope of Section 12 (4) (a) of the Act, then, of course, the position remained unchanged by the passage of the measure; but if it did not come within the scope of that section, not only the seller but the buyer, too, had to be a member of the Society of Herbalists, and that cut out the sale to the general public of remedies produced by all the following processes, which your Lordships will see are very considerable: boiling, decocting, distilling, evaporating.

947
extracting, expressing, infusing, macerating, percolating, pilling, pressing, tableting and tincturising—all of them, I understand, processes used in the legitimate practice of herbalism. This, as it has turned out—and one can well understand it—put the herbalists at a very serious disadvantage.
Finally, under this Act, the power to inspect and prosecute herbalists for breaches of the Act was given to the Pharmaceutical Society, and this, perhaps not unnaturally, was regarded by the herbalists as a very bitter pill for them to swallow. They have felt, and still feel, though I am sure the Pharmaceutical Society is the most reputable and responsible of bodies, that, in the nature of things, pharmacists are not likely to have any particular sympathy for herbalism as such. Why, they ask, choose that particular body, of all the possible ones, to be adjudicator in cases of this kind? And why, they add, were they, the herbalists, never consulted at all in the preparation of the Bill of 1941, although the pharmacists, and even the grocers, were?
Now, my Lords, I am not myself a herbalist. So far as I know, I have never taken a herbal remedy—not because I distrust them, but because (and I suppose the same is true of most of your Lordships) they have never happened to come my way. But I do not like to feel that a perfectly respectable body of people, fulfilling a function which is, after all, hallowed by antiquity, should believe that they have been subject to serious injustice. All they ask now is that they should be restored to the position which they held before the 1941 Act. That, I gather, could be easily effected by the introduction of an amendment into the Pharmacy and Medicines Act, 1941, extending the provisions of Section 12 (4) (a), to which I have already referred, to cover those other processes which I mentioned earlier, and which are clearly used in the legitimate practice of herbalism.
If there is any fear in any quarter that such action might open the door to quacks, the Institute and the Society would, I understand, welcome the introduction into the amendment which I have just mentioned of some wording making it abundantly clear that these additional processes should be used only
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by herbal practitioners who were approved by the Society and the Institute. They would also, as I think was made clear by the noble Lord, Lord Plumer, at the time of the passage of the Bill in 1941—and I am going to use his words [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 119, col. 947]:
"… not in the least object to placing on the labels the proper designation of the substance recommended as a medicine."
That, quite briefly, my Lords, is their proposal; and unless it is the view of the Government that there is something inherently dangerous to the public in properly conducted herbalism, there seems to be good reason why this change should properly be considered. I understand that the Government have lately set up an inter-Departmental working party to examine the body of legislation which concerns medicine, and I should like to suggest to the Government and to the House that the position of herbalists, and their specific proposal for an amendment of the Act of 1941, ought to be given full and fair consideration by this body in the light of the experience which there has now been, over the last twenty years, of the working of the Act. If the Government could give an assurance to that effect, I am sure it would be greatly appreciated by a body of people who are anxious only to be useful to the general public in the practice of their ancient craft.
5.35 p.m.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I should like just to say one or two words, not in complete support of the noble Marquess, but in support very largely of what he has said; because, although I must confess that I am not a herbalist myself—indeed, I do not think I have ever taken any medicine prepared by such a society—I feel that people who do prescribe medicines in perfectly good faith should be controlled by roughly the same kind of regulations as apply to doctors and pharmacists in the normal kind of work. In other words, there are certain things one may not advertise today. One may not say that such-and-such a medicine will cure cancer, will cure tuberculosis, will cure venereal disease, or one or two more diseases like that. I should like to see the same sort of rule applied to medicines prescribed by herbalists.

949
Another thing which is extremely important, I think, is that the composition of the medicine should be upon the bottle, upon the label, so that we know exactly what we are taking. We have to be very careful about that, because I remember that some time before the war there was a curious body of people from Wales who called themselves "The Cardigan Cancer Curists", and they claimed to treat cancer with some herbal remedy which had been handed down from father to son. It was enormously difficult to get some of this remedy, but when some of it was obtained in some way, and was submitted to a proper chemical analysis, it was found to contain some extremely strong caustic material, and there was no question of there being any herbal remedy at all. What I should like to see, therefore, is the Government following the line that the noble Marquess has suggested, and putting medicines and remedies made by herbalists under the same regulations as apply to those prescribed by the ordinary doctors, with the same rules about advertising and about indicating the contents of the prescription.
5.38 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I want only to say a few words. I think the House should be very grateful to the noble Marquess for having raised this question. Most of us have not, in the course of our busy lives, had particular contact with herbalism, and we should have been in some difficulty in defining it if we had been called upon to do so. It was an education to us to hear the noble Marquess's very clear explanation of what are the functions of people who practise herbalism. Speaking for myself, I am bound to say that if a substantial body of people feel that an injustice exists as a result of legislation, then it is something that ought to be attended to. Of course, I am not in a position to accept the fact that there has been an injustice here; but at least the matter ought to be looked into, in the light of what the noble Marquess has just said, and in the light of the speech we have just listened to from the noble Lord, Lord Amulree. There are obviously various aspects of the matter which need to be considered, and I am all in favour of an examination into a matter of this kind, where a body of people feel that
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they are not being properly and fairly treated.
I should like to go on to say that the moral to it all is that we ought not to embark upon hasty legislation—and we get a lot of that in this House in the month of July every year, when we are asked to "swallow" Bills and pass them through all their stages, as we did the other day. The noble Earl himself asked us to take a Bill through all its stages on the one day, although in my opinion it could have waited a couple of days. We have been asked to take other measures of a complicated character, without time being left for amendment, or to accept Amendments from another place without the opportunity of giving them the closest possible scrutiny. I beg of the Government to take this matter to heart. Somehow this question of hasty legislation ought to be attended to.
Yesterday I was speaking on the Commons Amendments to two Bills which had been introduced in your Lordships' House, and which I thought had been somewhat improved by our work here. I was gratified to find that the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack and the noble Viscount now the Leader of the House agreed that the Bills had been much improved by the Amendments made following discussions here, and subsequently adopted in another place. That is the advantage of full consideration and discussion. The noble Marquess has given an account of what happened in 1941 and how it was possible for the measure to which he referred to be slipped through without the fullest consideration and consultation with the people concerned. I hope that we shall take the lesson and see that in future Sessions of Parliament we are not forced to indulge in this hasty legislation. I think that the particular matter which the noble Marquess has raised should be properly and fully investigated.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I should like to support the noble Marquess in what he has said. Herbalists are innocent, harmless and very useful. They say that they have been injured by hasty war-time legislation, and I think that anybody who has a case of that kind has a right to have his position re-examined. I have received from people who are undoubtedly good herbalists very effective remedies for illness

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when no other remedies were available to me, when I was removed from getting doctors' prescriptions or anything of that kind. Therefore, I owe herbalists a debt of gratitude, and I am glad to add my voice to that of the noble Marquess who has raised this question.
5.45 p.m.
LORD DOWDING: My Lords, I had not intended to speak on this question, but following on what the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, said, I think that I should point out that this was not a case of hasty legislation pushed through owing to the force of circumstances. I am afraid that the history is rather more grim than that. It was discovered in the early days of the war, after purchase tax had been introduced, that for some time the chemical companies had been paying double duty on the goods they sold, and that had they made a claim against the Government then in power, they would have been entitled to receive very heavy compensation, which was not convenient at that time of the war. There is good evidence to indicate that the Government made a bargain with the chemists—I do not know if that is too strong to say; but at any rate this heavy debt was never paid off to the chemists. Instead, this Bill, which had the effect of putting herbalists out of business, was produced in an almost hole-and-corner way. That is to say, the final Bill was printed only a few days before it came up for discussion. The Amendments that many Members brought in another place were all refused. When the Bill reached your Lordships' House, a sort of compromise arrangement was made, on which the herbalists were consulted. Then, when the Bill finally came up in your Lordships' House to be passed, the agreed arrangements in Committee were all withdrawn and the Bill was pushed through without amendment. That is what herbalists believe to be the case. It is a grievance under which they have suffered ever since, and are still suffering.
Several noble Lords who have spoken have said that they are not herbalists and have never taken herbal remedies. I have taken herbal remedies and I think that in some instances they are very valuable. But I cannot buy from any source herbal remedies which, in my opinion, would be of value to me or to my friends unless I become a member
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of a certain company which creates and dispenses these herbal remedies. So I hope that when this matter is considered, in the way in which the noble Marquess has indicated, the case of the herbalists may receive the most sympathetic consideration.
5.48 p.m.
BARONESS HORSBRUGH: My Lords, I entirely agree with what the noble Marquess has asked, that there should be an inquiry into the position of herbalists. Some noble Lords have said that herbalists have been put out of work altogether. Of course, that is not the case, and many people to-day are benefiting from the remedies they prescribe.
I must declare at once that I was at the Ministry of Health and took part, as is perhaps known, in presenting to Parliament the Bill that has been mentioned, and urging that it should be passed. I should like to say that we had consultations with many people and many groups. Speaking from memory, I cannot be sure that the herbalists were among the groups consulted. Certainly individual herbalists were, but whether the consultations were official or not, I cannot say. But I do know that consultations took place with an enormous number of groups, organisations and individual people. I am naturally not now going into the details of the reasons, as some of them, although not all, have already been stated. But I should like to assure your Lordships that, from our point of view, it was not meant, and I do not think it would have been considered in the other place, as hurried legislation. A great deal of thought and discussion went into it.
LORD SILKIN: When one speaks of "hurried legislation" one is not referring to the time taken in the inception of the Bill. I was referring to the time given for discussion in this House and in another place.
BARONESS HORSBRUGH: I appreciate that. But, looking back—I have not looked this up, and I am speaking from memory; and perhaps to me it seems rather a long time ago, having had some responsibility in the other place—I should not have thought it was hurried there. Of course, I have no idea what happened in your Lordships' House. A

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great deal of effort was made to consult; and we certainly did not want to put them out of practice. In supporting my noble friend Lord Salisbury, I should be glad if the matter could now be looked at again to see whether any alterations could be made that would give legitimate herbalists the right to do good and would prevent other people from doing evil.
5.52 p.m.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I think there are two separate issues here. The first is the right of anybody to make a decoction or a tincture and sell it in good faith to the public. Really, I cannot see any reason why anybody should not make such a decoction or tincture or maceration or what you like. In fact, we all do it. Every time we make a pot of tea we make a herbal infusion which cheers the soul and raises the spirit. This is a herbal remedy, and it is perfectly harmless. If anybody likes to sell me a bottle of cold tea, provided he labels it honestly and says how much tea he put in, I cannot see that the Pharmaceutical Society or anybody else should stop him. But if all herbal remedies are to be labelled as to their contents, as my noble friend Lord Amulree suggests, I am afraid that we shall get into great difficulties, because the herbalist could not possibly tell you what the contents of these herbs are. Only a pharmaceutical chemist, and possibly an analyst skilled in alkaloids and the higher biochemistry, could possibly tell you what is contained in a number of these herbs. I very much doubt whether there is any evidence that many of them are very pharmaceutically or pharmacologically active. I think that any attempt to do more than describe in simple ordinary English on the bottle what is actually put in would be foolish; and I doubt whether we ought to legislate even about that.
I am certain that we ought not to legislate about the rights of the herbalists to control their industry by legislation, because that would involve a recognition of herbalism as being a valid and scientific activity, for which there is really no evidence. I think the herbalists would have to make out a great scientific case, just as your Lordships will recall the osteopaths made out a great scientific case before a Select Committee of your Lordships' House in, I think, 1937.
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They came completely to grief, as I have no doubt the poor old herbalists would do if they tried to do the same thing. I think it would be a mistake for them to try. Therefore, in my view, it would be quite wrong to adopt the suggestion of the noble Marquess: that, in making any amendment to assist the herbalists in the innocent making of decoctions, we should thereby give them any sort of official recognition. That would be something absolutely different and a very serious matter, to be tackled seriously and only after prolonged consideration, which, in my humble opinion, would be a complete waste of time. On the other hand, that they should be allowed to go about their harmless ways, making their harmless medicines—as I am sure most of them are—and bringing cheer to many people, seems to me to be an innocent and perfectly harmless practice which should not in any way be controlled by the Pharmaceutical Society.
5.56 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I should like to cross swords slightly with my noble friend who has just sat down. He waved off these remedies as being harmless and not having any value. I do not think that that is so at all. I think that some of these remedies, as the noble Marquess and the noble and gallant Lord who spoke have said, are of real value. I used years ago to be well acquainted with a herbalist who was a sound, sensible and intelligent man. I was not a patient of his, although I remember on one occasion when I had some indigestion he gave me something which I found very helpful. This type of rather unorthodox practice may be exceedingly valuable.
My particular herbalist lived within a mile or two of Mr. Barker, the famous manipulator, and the interesting thing about them is that they came from families who have for generations practised in this sort of work. Mr. Barker, of course, was a bonesetter. I remember him before he became famous in the First World War, when his undoubted skill as a manipulator and his remarkable knowledge of anatomy enabled him to put right a large number of people who had been badly wounded in the war. Afterwards he received a knighthood, much to the discomfort of many orthodox

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medical friends of mine; but I am certain that it was well deserved.
I am also quite sure that, while there are no doubt many quacks among the herbalists, there are a number of them who have this sort of wisdom which is handed down from one generation to another. The man I am talking about had a considerable knowledge of anatomy; he was a wise man and he had imbibed this sort of understanding of simple ailments, and the remedies which can do a great deal of good, from his father, who had handed them down. There is a great deal of lore in our countryside which has real value. If your Lordships will forgive what might appear to be a digression, I may say that when I was in China the problem of Chinese medicine, which to a great extent is of this old-fashioned herbal type, and modern medicine, was considerably discussed among the medical scientists. They were trying to discover, in a way which I thought was really interesting and valuable, some method of integrating the two expertises.
I am not suggesting that the herbalists come within a long way of making the great contributions which have been made by medical science, especially in recent generations, but I think it would be altogether wrong just to dismiss the whole thing, as the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, rather tended to do, as if there were nothing in it. I am sure that, provided it is handled in a scientific way, there is a great deal to be learned from these people, and I hope that the Government will do their best to assist the noble Marquess.
5.59 p.m.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I trust that by the end of my Answer to my noble friend Lord Salisbury I shall have shown more appreciation and even some understanding of the cause he has championed than may appear at the outset. But, to begin with, I think I must point out the difficulties and risks of undoing some of the deliberate, thoughtful provisions of the Act of 1941, sponsored by a Government of which, as the noble Marquess reminded us, he was himself a member. The main purpose of this Pharmacy and Medicines Act, 1941, was to abolish the medicine stamp and licence duties which had been pay-
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able on certain medicines under the Medicine Stamp Acts. This abolition was made necessary, as was mentioned by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Dowding, by the introduction of purchase tax as applied to medicine, which would otherwise have been a tax on a tax.
In addition, the Act of 1941 provided that the retail sale of medicines should be restricted normally to chemists, doctors and dentists. But there were exemptions from this provision for certain existing named remedies under general types—for example, embrocation, linctus, cough medicines and mild headache pills—and these existing named remedies included such herbal remedies as had proprietary names. In a word, what was known and accepted as harmless at the time was exempted from the new safeguards incorporated in the Act. Unless these restrictions which my noble friend would like to see relaxed are seen as safeguards on the public's behalf, the difficulties and risks which accompany his proposals will not be apparent.
These safeguards were introduced in Section 12 (4) (a) of the Act by limiting the sale and distribution of herbal remedies except those already known, and in the case of substances produced by drying, crushing or comminuting—that is to say, breaking into small pieces. They could also be mixed with each other or mixed with water. This was thought, in the careful consideration given to the herbalists' position while the Bill was being drafted, to give adequate protection to legitimate herbalism and to the public at the same time. I am most grateful to my noble friend Lady Horsbrugh for emphasising at first hand the care that was taken in these deliberations.
The herbalists are now saying, however, that the processes which they are allowed to use are too limited and prevent them from selling to the general public any medicines except dried herbs and certain proprietary preparations established before 1941. What the herbalists (who have found a formidable champion in my noble friend Lord Salisbury and other noble Lords in this House), wish the Government to do is to extend these provisions to include, in addition to the processes of drying, crushing and comminuting, the processes of boiling, decocting, distilling,

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evaporating, extracting, expressing, infusing, macerating, percolating, pilling, pressing, tableting and tincturising. The temptation to read the list already read out by my noble friend was, I am afraid, too strong.
As your Lordships will see, some of these are extremely technical terms, and as such they are open to varied interpretation by the technicians concerned. Certainly, some of the processes seem proper to the practice of pharmacy, and even dangerous when permitted to those untutored in pharmacy. My own advisers tell me that they cover practically anything you can do to a defenceless plant.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord a question? These processes were open to herbalists before 1941. Was there any sign that they had been misused?
LORD ST. OSWALD: No, my Lords. I confess that I have inquired into this, and so far as I know there is no record of any abuse. But the fact that they were open to abuse is a matter of which I am sure my noble friend will agree the Government have to take note, and over which they have to take some action. For instance, macerating could involve the adding of alcohol to a substance, allowing it to stand, and then filtering off the residue for consumption. A tincture is the solution of a substance in one of the dilutes of alcohol. Percolating could also involve alcohol in sparing or generous proportions.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, the noble Lord will know that anybody who has made home-made wine uses precisely these processes, including the addition of alcohol.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, can the noble Lord tell me what exactly is the objection to the use of alcohol?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, may I say that in one theatre of war where the normal proprietary stimulants were hard to come by, with the help of some Central and East European advisers I produced an inexpensive and an acceptable form of vodka by such a process. It was hardly the sort of concoction which the Minis-
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ter of Health could, or should, authorise for sale across the grocers' counters of this country. What is made in the noble Lord's own bathtub is entirely his own business. That is not to say that my right honourable friend regards herbalists as being irresponsible, but it would be irresponsible for him to overlook the hazards of allowing unqualified individuals, untrained in pharmacy or chemistry, to have a free hand with all these processes and sell the results to the public. If they were really allowed to decoct, distill, infuse, macerate, percolate and tincturise anything that took their fancy, the results might he disturbing and harmful.
The Society of Herbalists have, however, appreciated this point, and they have made a very significant proposal to meet it. That brings me to the more positive and hopeful part of what I have to say, and in this I hope to meet my noble friend's desire, at least in part, which would naturally always be my wish. The Government, as my noble friend noted, have undertaken to review the whole of the legislation relating to the control of medicinal substances, including the Act of 1941 A working party of officials was set up in November and is now receiving evidence and views from the various bodies mainly concerned with this subject. Among them are the herbalists, and they quite rightly have submitted a memorandum to this Working Party. In paragraph 10 of that memorandum they recognise the Government's duty to protect the public, and in seeking the authorisation of these additional processes they are prepared to see it restricted to "duly qualified herbal practitioners only." The problem remains—and it is not easy of solution at the moment—who decides what exactly is a duly qualified herbal practitioner. What could correspond to the close analytical control of the other medicines insisted upon to-day? How, without pharmaceutical training, would these herbal practitioners be able to measure the potency of the medicines they were producing? In fact, is good faith enough in the production and sale of these substances and remedies?
The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, cast some doubt upon whether at the moment the herbalists could meet these necessary provisions, and I am bound to say that

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I echo his doubts on this matter. Undeniably, I think these are difficult questions to answer, but possibly the answers will emerge in the course of the Working Party's inquiries in which, of course, the herbalists' submissions will be received and given due weight.
In the course of my own inquiries, I discovered in my Yorkshire home last week two books, one massive, the other smaller, but almost equally rich in content, providing a great fund of remedies enjoyed, or at least indulged in, by my own family. There are, among the 150 remedies in the smaller book alone, a water to fasten teeth, a water for sharp humours in the blood, an electuary for coughs and snail water for consumption. There are also cures of different natures for the Falling of the Fundament, for the chin-cough, the thickness of hearing, for an easy labour, for St. Anthony's fire, for the biting of a mad dog, for ye scurvey, for the weakening of the knees, for an unthrifty horse and for Ye Piles.
Among more than 100 ingredients there are: poppies, carroway, sweet fennel, coriander, mugwort, gentian, rhubarb, marshmallows, lilyroots, honeysuckle leaves, violets, pumpkin seeds, saffron, acorns, strawberry leaves, a great deal of French brandy and not a little claret. I think I will not read to your Lordships the remedy for the weakness of the knees, which I confess habitually afflicts me when I rise to speak in your Lordships' House. But I should hardly forgive myself if I failed to acquaint your Lordships of the virtues of aqua mirabilis, which are as follows:
"It takes away the swelling of the lungs, keeps ye Blood from putrefying, it keeps ye Heart cheerful, it expels Rheum, comforts the Stomach, keeps youth florid, preserves ye Memory, it helps Palsy in ye Limbs or Tongue, if it can be given one at the point of Death it will revive him. It is ye best of Cordiall Waters."
I will naturally impart the composition of this remarkable potion to any noble Lord who may be interested. As your Lordships can imagine, seeing the confidence that my forbears placed in herbal remedies, it would be disloyal of me to be sceptical. In fact, I have had later and more convincing evidence of their importance which will be known to some extent to other noble Lords. I have had described to me by
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my Polish friends those terrible days at the end of the war when disease of every kind was raging in large parts of Europe and when pharmaceutical drugs were entirely non-existent. In those days whole populations fell back upon the remembered lore of herbal cures, and large parts of those populations owed their survival to those cures.
No one, I think, would seek to deny that herbalism was the beginning of medicine, and as such, hallowed by antiquity, in the words of my noble friend. But now, except in tragic and terrible emergencies, some of which were known to Lord Saltoun, we need not return exclusively to those beginnings. Diagnosis and cure are infinitely more specialised and more precise than they were in those days. I think it would also be idle to deny that centuries ago, when nothing but herbal remedies were known, although thousands of lives were saved by those remedies many were lost by misapplication or ignorance. Such ignorance we cannot tolerate to-day, however rare and however well-intentioned. Safeguards must be insisted upon, and I am glad to see that the Society of Herbalists appreciate that. Since my noble friend has asked me to give him an assurance that their opinions and claims will be listened to and studied by the present Working Party, I can give him that assurance with the fullest confidence; and in fact they are already being studied.

FOG DISPERSAL AT LONDON AND GATWICK AIRPORTS
6.12 p.m.
LORD BRAYE LORD BRAYE rose to ask Her Majesty's Government if any decision has as yet been taken to have some modified form of fog dispersal unit at London or Gatwick Airport, and to inquire if the results of experiments with this type of equipment have proved to be in any way functional. The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is not the first time I have asked this Question in your Lordships' House. In fact I last asked the Question on June 24, 1959, when I received the reply from Her Majesty's Government that experiments were being conducted at Marham and that we should eventually hear of some results. At the moment there is no system of fog dispersal at London Airport and none at Gatwick.
I will be as brief as possible, but I should like to divide my remarks into two parts. I am fully aware that the Government and those concerned with developments at the Air Ministry are very interested in this new electronic landing device. I am naturally not going to press the noble Earl for any secrets, but we know that all electronic apparatus fitted into an aircraft can fail. Several airline operators and people I have spoken to, among them experienced captains of aircraft, have said, "It is all very fine to have this electronic device, but if it goes wrong what happens?
There are to-day, however, firms of English chemists who have developed a form of spray (about which we have heard before in this House, because I think the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, referred to it last year) which can be sprayed into the fog and which has the effect of freezing the fog. That, if it can be used, has great advantages over the heat form of dispersal, which would be a modified form of the old war-time F.I.D.O. The heat form has two great disadvantages. One is that it is extremely expensive, even the modified form; and the second is that the nozzles blowing up the burning oil are a source of danger to landing aircraft, especially if an aircraft happens to go off the runway. I should like to hear from the noble Earl, Lord Bathurst, when he replies, what the Air Ministry think of the chemical method, whether it is very expensive and whether there is a possibility of its being used.
I should like just for one moment to remind your Lordships of the delays caused by fog. As you know, last summer was the hottest, longest and driest summer we have had almost in living memory, with the result that there was practically no fog—there were a few delays, very few—and that the winter was a most exceptional one, and is not likely, I am afraid, to be repeated, certainly not this year. I would just remind you of the figures which I take it are more or less average. From November 1, 1958, until March 24, 1959, London Airport was affected for 52 days by fog. Over a similar period Gatwick Aerodrome was affected for 53 days. That means a considerable financial loss to air operators and a considerable inconvenience to passengers, many of whom are engaged either on business or on important work for the
962
Government. If something could be done, in addition to the use of the electronic device, or until the electronic device has proved itself to be a success, at London or Gatwick or any other airport which the Air Ministry might think suitable—so long as we have one airport in England at which we can get down in the fog—it would be a very great asset to the many passengers who nowadays travel by air.
6.18 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I think we should congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Braye, on his pertinacity in this matter, and I hope that it will have some effect on the Government, and indeed, on the Minister of Aviation whoever he may "happen to be when the tests are completed. I feel that this matter has gone on long enough, and that the decision ought to be taken within the next few months anyway, because there have been very clear demands from certain of the operators that they would like such a system. I fully appreciate, as I am sure does the noble Lord, Lord Braye, the disadvantages of having such a system. Many of us, of course, are familiar with F.I.D.O. from the war days, and it is perhaps sad that nothing more dramatic, more effective or more convenient is yet available. But I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Braye, that the development of a purely "blind" landing system, using an electronic device, is not going to be an answer, at least for some of the operators. For even if it is perfected, there will still be, for many years to come, a large number of aircraft for which it will be uneconomic to have this sort of equipment.
Here I think it is worth while differentiating between long-range and worldwide operators like B.O.A.C., for whom such a system is probably not nearly so necessary, and who, so far as I know, are not particularly pressing for it. There are many airports in the world which they have to visit where they will not have such help, and it is not quite so important to them. Furthermore, their route structure is greater and longer diversion is more possible. Bat when it comes to European operators, and particularly British European Airways, this matter is of really great importance. If it is important to them it is important to

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us. I am sure that many of your Lordships have had the frustration of being delayed by fog. We shall not have it when we go away on holiday next week, but if we go away on holiday around Christmas in the mind of every one of us will be the uncertainty as to whether or not we shall get off on the day and, furthermore, whether we shall get back on the day we plan.
For British European Airways it would be possible for them to improve their effectiveness by quite a significant percentage if these delays could be prevented. I am not, therefore, arguing (and I know that the noble Lord would agree; and particularly the noble Earl, Lord Gosford, who had to deal with this matter on a previous occasion) that this is purely a question of safety; it is largely a question of economics. It is economics of a kind that affect the convenience of the travelling public, and it affects the efficiency of the operations of these European carriers, whether they be British European Airways or some of the independents. It is not likely that in the foreseeable future—at least not for many years—they will be able to rely on some electronic device. Even when British European Airways have the D.H.121, which may be able to carry this device, they will not be able to use it. B.O.A.C. will be in a different position. They will be using the V.C.10, which will carry these devices. But even so, the point that has been made by some people (I know that there are arguments the other way) and has been put strongly by some operators, is that in the last resort the pilot likes to see what he is landing on.
I remember a foggy day last Christmas when I landed in the only aircraft to land at London Airport. It was on the same day that the then Turkish Prime Minister had a disastrous accident. We did not see the runway until about four seconds before we touched down. It was an uncomfortable experience. It was not made any more comfortable by the pilot's remark that he was going to "have a stab at it" and hoped to land. But in a matter of this kind I think it would be possible to increase the confidence of the travelling public, even though safety is not the primary factor. I think that in order to do it we have to rely on
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F.I.D.O. From the information that the noble Earl, Lord Gosford, gave last year, the possibility of freezing fog in England is rather a small one, because generally our fogs are above freezing temperature. Furthermore, as the noble Lord, Lord Braye, and others have said, F.I.D.O. would work in foggy conditions in this country because there are not the high winds to make it difficult.
It seems extraordinary that, eighteen years after it was developed in the war—and I and other noble Lords have seen it burning on an airfield—we have not yet been able to make this system available. The reason we have not got it is that the Government and the operators cannot come to an agreement on the cost. What we are asking the Government is that when they have completed the trials—and I understand that a new test is to be conducted very shortly—they will get down to it, not only with British European Airways but with other operators, through whatever organisation is available, to see whether London Airport can be supplied with a F.I.D.O. system. On the question of cost, I do not think it is fair for the Government to argue that, since economics are the primary factor, the cost of such a system must be wholly borne by the airlines. They provide any number of other facilities, and although this is, in a sense, a necessity, it is none the less an extension of the type of facility that is provided, and which we look to the Ministry of Aviation to provide in this country. So I hope that we shall have a sympathetic reply from the noble Earl, and that something will result from the initiative of the noble Lord, Lord Braye.
6.24 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: I should like to commend the noble Lord, Lord Braye, on his persistence in putting down this Question year after year while never getting a very satisfactory Answer from the Government. I think it is a good thing that the Question comes before Parliament repeatedly from time to time because it is quite intolerable that delays should be caused to passengers and freight through their being put down at some remote airfield because one of the main airfields of the country has been put out of action by fog. The figures that he gave are most illuminating. He spoke of 52 days in

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the case of London Airport, and I think he said 53 days in the case of Gatwick. Those most illuminating figures show the extent of the problem.
We are now in the air age, and it is essential that passengers who want to come here should come to the airfield upon which they expect to land. It is no good booking a ticket to come to London Airport and, if one has an appointment or a series of appointments in the City, to expect one with any sort of graciousness to find oneself landed near Glasgow or somewhere like that. That does happen. I myself have been put down at a most awkward time at Hurn, near Bournemouth, and it took me hours to get up to London. It really is not good enough. This is not a matter only for the British Government; all Governments are concerned in this. I think it is something which has not received the amount of priority which should have been given to it.
The solution of the noble Lord, Lord Braye, is, of course, one which deals with either the freezing of fog or the dispelling of fog by means of heat. This is a technical matter upon which I cannot pretend to be able to give any useful opinion, but I believe that, so far as dispelling fog by heat is concerned, it is not only, as the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, has suggested, a question of expense, although it is a big expense. It is also a question of the impact upon the minds of the passengers. It is all very well for the Royal Air Force to be prepared to land on what appears to be a sea of flames, but it is by no means to be expected that the average type of passenger—old ladies, little children, nervous business men, and so on—will look with equal favour and with the same sort of calmness upon landing in such conditions.
While I extend every encouragement to Lord Braye in his pursuit on this problem, and obviously, if we can get some means of fog dispelling by which the pilot can see where he is going to land, it is an excellent thing, I believe that one must expect to go for better methods of ground to air control—that is to say, means by which the people on the ground can guide the aircraft in. By this time, with research which is
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going on the whole time, and with the great achievements in the electronics field, we should get answers which might lead to "blind" landings. The Ministry of Aviation, at least when I was connected with it, had its own aircraft, and they used to go up at such times as other aircraft were grounded—that was the whole object for which they were used. They went up in order to test these methods. It was most encouraging to go up with them because you always knew that you would get down, because they came in at almost "zero" visibility.
As I understand it, the pilot wishes, first of all, to know where he is in relation to the ground, and, secondly, how high he is as he comes in to land. I think that, so far as this matter is concerned, it was a great pity that other countries did not accept the Decca system. It is a remarkable system. It is either a Canadian or a British system; at all events, it was a system which was developed within the British Commonwealth. But purely for commercial reasons, or for nationalistic reasons, the United States persuaded other countries at the International Convention to vote against it, and to vote in favour of a system which was not nearly so good. I think that is something which we should put on record. When it comes to safety in the air, it is appalling that these nationalistic and commercial considerations should be brought in in any way. I have had more than one personal experience of the Decca system. I have flown with it and have seen how it works. It is remarkable. One can actually go down the Thames Valley and see on the map, as it were, exactly where one is at any moment, almost to ten feet or something of that kind. That, combined with a better ground-air system by which the pilot knows his exact height as he is "dropping in" to land, would go a long way to solve this problem. I shall be very interested to hear what the noble Earl has Ito say and, if he does not give a good answer, I shall be interested to know what the new Minister of Aviation will propose to do. While congratulating him upon his appointment I would urge him to regard this as one of the very vital questions which he should bear in mind in his new office.
6.32 p.m.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, as a little more than a year ago I took part in a similar debate initiated by my noble friend Lord Braye, I feel it right that I should add a few words of comment today. My noble friend Lord Gosford, as the Government spokesman at the time, admitted that the avoidance of diversion to airports other than the scheduled destination would be a great convenience to air passengers and aircraft operators. I go further than that; I think it is not only a question of convenience but that in many cases it will represent a considerable saving to the aircraft operators. Last year I quoted a figure of £400 as the extra cost involved in diverting one aircraft. But one should consider, also, the extra cost that is involved with regard to maintenance of an aircraft; for when an aircraft is diverted problems of maintenance arise. Suitable facilities may not exist at the airfield to which the aircraft is diverted, and I feel that now that British European Airways have that very fine £7 million engineering base at London Airport they would certainly encourage such a scheme. Also, although I cannot speak with knowledge, I should imagine that it is their intention that the whole of their fleet of 116 aircraft should be maintained there, so that if aircraft are diverted it means extra cost.
Further, when aircraft are diverted other schedules are put out, not only the schedule and timing of the aircraft which is diverted. When travelling abroad I have found on a number of occasions that the aircraft I was to have boarded was not available because the whole of the traffic planning had been put out as a result of delay or diversion of some aircraft. That, again, means extra cost to the operator.
Apart from the extra cost, there is also the aspect of the ill-feeling which that breeds among passengers—first, the passenger who is travelling on the aircraft which is diverted, and secondly, the passenger who is delayed because no aircraft is available to take him where he had intended to go on a particular day at a particular time. I believe that during the winter months a number of would-be passengers hesitate to book a passage by air in view of the possible delay and the inconvenience that they might be caused because of such delay.
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That was a point mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton. Delay may involve extra cost to them, or it may mean that they miss an appointment or find themselves landed somewhere else. I believe that fear of delay in the winter means that passengers often travel by other means of transport, so as to be sure of getting to their scheduled destination at the correct time.
During the course of the debate on June 24 last year, the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, spoke, and I feel it would be in order for me to quote briefly from his remarks, because what he says with regard to aviation matters carries a fair amount of weight in this country. He said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 217, col. 230]:
"We have curious conditions in this country in relation to fog, because when we have a fog the conditions are calm: there is seldom a fog with a wind."
Later he says:
"Consequently, it means that we need fit up, so to speak, only one runway."
One runway would not involve such fantastically large expenditure. That is why I welcome this opportunity which has been given us to-day by my noble friend Lord Braye to ask the noble Earl whether he has any further information to give on the various methods which are being developed at the moment or on which research is being carried out. I have in mind particularly the method to which my noble friend Lord Braye referred to-day—the chemical process. I believe—and I think the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, would agree—that if chemicals can be sprayed in that way that would be preferable, from the passengers' point of view, to some method whereby heat is generated by means of burners along the runway.
I believe that there is another process, though I do not know the stage it has reached at the moment or whether any degree of success has been achieved with it. It is a process which was initiated by the Ministry of Civil Aviation in France. Possibly the noble Earl may have information upon that. It involves the use of ultrasonic waves. If that were successful it might prove a less costly way of tackling this problem than atomising liquids or burning some form of fuel. It may be, of course, that development in this country has been undertaken more on the lines of the

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modified F.I.D.O. process, but I shall be pleased to hear from the noble Earl when he comes to reply whether Her Majesty's Government have any information with regard to the tests which have been made by British chemists. My noble friend Lord Braye referred to these tests, of which I am glad to hear, because if the facilities are available in this country, rather than abroad, that is most encouraging. If that is the case, then I trust the Government will give every possible facility to the development of such a chemical process.
As other noble Lords have mentioned, air travel is developing at a very rapid rate, and it is only right, therefore, that this question should be seriously considered by Her Majesty's Government, because feel that we are hindering the development of air travel to a certain extent if we are not providing facilities at our main airports, whether it be London Airport or Gatwick, for aircraft to land there in conditions of very poor visibility. In other words, I think that the air passengers of the future should be certain that, whatever the conditions of visibility are, they will land there at the prescribed time and on the prescribed date.
6.41 p.m.
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Braye, for bringing this Question before your Lordships again, and I am grateful to those of your Lordships who have stayed in the House to listen until the end of this debate, which is on a very technical subject. I should like us to bear two points in mind. Your Lordships have already mentioned that my noble friend Lord Gosford referred last year to the experiments with the F.I.D.O. device, which has been mentioned in pretty well every speech this evening. Since the noble Earl's speech, experiments and trials have been carried on with this new improved F.I.D.O. device, and we now know that this device will definitely clear—it is guaranteed to clear—intense fog effectively upon an aerodrome. That is a considerable advance upon the position that existed when my noble friend Lord Brave raised the point last year.
The second point, which has also been mentioned, is that we are not really considering points of safety. That is not the factor that will decide whether an
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installation such as F.I.D.O. should be put at London Airport or (as my noble friend is asking about it in his Question) Gatwick Airport. But I think we can leave Gatwick out at this stage, as it is a very much smaller aerodrome.
By the international rules, no commercial aircraft can fly unless its flight plan states an alternative aerodrome that is free of fog, and it must be possible to divert an aeroplane to an alternative aerodrome if fog shuts down its stated destination. Otherwise, that aeroplane may not take off, and that results in the delays and frustrations and annoyances, to say the least, which your Lordships have mentioned. That is a world-wide rule accepted by world-wide air travellers, and is one of the disadvantages, if I may put it that way, of air travel to-day. It is an especial disadvantage to our two great national Corporations, because they have their maintenance headquarters stationed here in London. The point is regularity of an airliner at the beginning and ending of its scheduled flight; and, obviously, with so many flights beginning and ending in London, and with the maintenance requirements, this point is of especial interest to British Overseas Airways Corporation and British European Airways.
All your Lordships who have spoken have mentioned this delay and the expense and inconvenience. But none of your Lordships has mentioned the price of the ticket of the passenger, and there is no doubt that all airlines to-day are trying to compete in bringing down their charges to their passengers. The problem is to balance the expense of these delays, which the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, and my noble friend Lord Merrivale, as well as others of your Lordships, so graphically described, against the undoubted expense of installing and operating a F.I.D.O. device such as I have already mentioned. A lot of advice was given in your Lordships' House yesterday as to how the taxpayers' money should be spent, and I hope that I am in line with the best of this advice when I say that it is the view of the Minister of Aviation that there must be a demand from the airlines for some F.I.D.O. system or some other such system to be installed at London Airport. I was most interested to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, that this

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demand does in fact exist—perhaps it is very new information. My information is that there has been very little demand from the airline operators at London Airport, but perhaps he could let me know further details about it another time.
We want to know that these airlines, having demanded the system, will give some proof that they will pay a fair share of the installation charges, which in the case of London Airport would be in the region of £700,000; and that they will also pay their fair share of the charges for burning. As a result of these tests which my noble friend Lord Gosford mentioned, we can now say that it is approximately £280 for a landing and something in the region of £140 for a take-off.
We have also to consider the "auto" landing, which has been so graphically described by my noble friend Lord Braye and the noble Lords, Lord Shackleton and Lord Ogmore. There is no doubt that by the end of the decade "auto." landing devices of one sort or another, together with ground installations, will be available for the aeroplanes of that era. There will be supersonic airliners a little further away and just round the corner, and there is no doubt that they will have to be landed by some form of automatic device. I would, with due deference to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, suspect that pilots and passengers would probably prefer to face the other way round (in other words, back to front) when coming in to land in such airliners. Nevertheless, I can well appreciate—and I think your Lordships have done so this evening—that, in spite of these automatic devices, it may be necessary for safety at that time, towards the end of the decade, to have some such system for dispersing intense fog, whether it be F.I.D.O. or whether it be an improvement upon that device.
The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, referred to the time and to the delay—and, indeed, that is the reason for my noble friend's Question. There have been heartbreaking delays over this improved F.I.D.O. system. As the noble Earl, Lord Gosford, told us, it was installed at Marham Royal Air Force Station, and there, after these delays, we have proved that the F.I.D.O. development
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is the one and only device that is known for clearing fogs, the warm fogs in normally clear and still air, that are prevalent in this country. I should like to pay a tribute to the scientists and engineers of the Royal Air Force establishment and to all those who worked with them in most unpleasant circumstances, which I am sure noble Lords can appreciate, on the edge of a very cold aerodrome. Also, I should like to pay a tribute to the war-time inventor of the F.I.D.O. system and to those pilots who braved coming down to land under that system.
Enormous advances have been made. First, there are three lines of newly-designed burners, each 900 yards long; that is, the fuel lines are 900 yards long. The burners can be automatically ignited. They now burn fuel oil instead of petrol as in the old days. My noble friend Lord Braye will be interested to know that there is now no smoke at all. I cannot guarantee the position about smell, but there is no smoke, or precious little. No time is taken in warming up, which used to be a great drawback to the old F.I.D.O. system, and the fuel oil is safe in storage. In the very near future—next month—there will be a ground demonstration which airline operators will be invited to attend. I hope that any of your Lordships who can stimulate interest in the F.I.D.O. system will persuade the friends your Lordships may have in the air transport business to take an interest in these demonstration trials.
At these trials, all the logistics and the economics will be worked out. Then, fog tests will take place afterwards, when the fogs begin occurring at Marham, and the airline operators will have a chance to see how this new system works under actual landing conditions. I think your Lordships would wish me to pay some tribute to my right honourable friend for bringing these experiments to such an advanced stage of progress in spite of these drawbacks and delays which have been so heartbreaking; and I am quite certain, too, that your Lordships would want me, on your Lordships' behalf, to wish him well in the great new responsibilities that he has taken over from the office of our beloved Leader, to whom such warm tributes have been paid to-day. Did the noble Lord wish to say something?
LORD SHACKLETON: I merely wanted to ask the noble Earl which right honourable friend he was referring to.
EARL BATHURST: I am referring now to my right honourable friend Mr. Duncan Sandys. Under his guidance, these tests are now coming to fruition—whether successful or not, as I shall describe, we shall have to wait and see. As I have explained, this is the only device known in the world which is guaranteed to work, and the eyes of the air transport industry are upon it, and especially the eyes of our friends in the United States and in France.
Now there are other methods. My noble friend Lord Braye and my noble friend Lord Merrivale have mentioned them—in fact, they mentioned them during the last debate. First, there are the chemical sprays; but unfortunately many of the chemicals used have proved to be corrosive to metal and rubber, and also to ground installations, so they are not altogether satisfactory. Also, there is great difficulty in making the spray nozzles, and so forth. In fact, there are a host of technical difficulties. However, experiments on these sprays are going on on a small scale. Then, one could have electrically-charged sprays. These sprays, which put an electric charge all over the area required, work in theory in a laboratory fog, but unfortunately they do not work in the field—or, at least, not so far. Then there is the liquid propane spray, which is especially known to my noble friend Lord Merrivale, and which is installed at Orly Aerodrome, in France. So far, it has been used operationally only three times. It had some considerable effect, but this liquid propane works only if the fog is under minus one degree Centigrade, and that is the reason why it is not suitable for clearing the usual fog in this country. On the other hand, of course F.I.D.O. will clear any fog, whether it is under minus one degree Centigrade or over. There are also disadvantages in the danger that exists in the storage, of liquid propane.
The noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, also mentioned this newest method of ultrasonic waves. Here again, this method will clear laboratory fogs, but when enormous quantities of ultra-sonic waves are shot about in the middle of a field they unfortunately have no effect whatsoever. According to my information, the idea
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stems from the United States. It may be that there are parallel developments in France; but the idea comes from using ultra-sonic waves literally to knock the smoke particles out of an industrial chimney stack. That works, but it does not work when the same system is taken outside; and, for that reason, experiments have stopped in the United States.
My Lords, there are many other chemical devices, but they are all at only the laboratory theory stage, and I do not think that I need weary your Lordships with them now. However, I do assure my noble friend Lord Merrivale that my right honourable friend—that is, my new right honourable friend—has available to him all the most up-to-date knowledge on this subject throughout the world. Indeed, a lot of what I have said in this speech is based on a conference held at Boston in the United States at the beginning of this year, 1960.
In reply to the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, I should like to tell him—although I know that he already knows this—that London Airport has, in fact, the finest radar control and approach control system that there is in the world. I sympathise very much with what he said with regard to the Decca system; hut, of course, it is open to any operator to install that system if he so wishes. Also, of course, it is used by the Port of London Authority, and by all sorts of other dock and naval installations. But that does not help us to land.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I suggest that it does help to land, because it does tell you where you are when you are approaching the airfield. But the fact is that it has not been made international equipment. Any aircraft can have it, but it is not part of the international equipment. It was hoped that it would be standard equipment for all aircraft.
EARL BATHURST: That is the fact, that it is not the international standard equipment, and I said that I sympathise with what the noble Lord has said. But, with regard to the positioning, there are, of course, wonderful schemes existing at London Airport to which I have already referred. It also has the best visual approach system in the world for bad weather; and that is the system under which I have no doubt the noble Lord,

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Lord Shackleton, landed. For myself, I must say that, no matter how good it may be, it must be a very frightening experience.
LORD OGMORE: I do not want to interrupt the noble Earl unnecessarily, but I want to make it quite clear that I know that London Airport has the finest system in the world; but in this debate we are dealing with airports generally, of course, and not merely with London Airport. Therefore, although London Airport is so good, I can assure him I know of airports, not in this country, which are very bad.
EARL BATHURST: There, the point is that there must be a diversion. I am sure no noble Lord would wish F.I.D.O. to be put at more than one, or perhaps two, airports in this country. I believe that the expense would be prohibitive. We are talking about London Airport, and that is the only airport which has a sufficiently large flow of traffic to enable us to persuade the operators to pay the extra landing charges, when we really find out what those charges are. I expect their way of thinking may be coming round to something on the lines on which the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, spoke.
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, when the noble Earl talks about expense, is it not a fact that the expense of the installation at London Airport would be considerably less than the cost of one aircraft?
EARL BATHURST: I think that is very definitely so, my Lords, but this is a point for the operators. They must be shown that that is worth while. It is still more expenditure at a time when they are trying to lower their air fares. But it is quite true that aeroplanes are very expensive, as the noble Earl has indicated.
My Lords, I was speaking of the visual systems, and, although it really has nothing to do with F.I.D.O., I think it would interest your Lordships to know that, in competition with five other systems, the London Airport visual landing aids, or that system which is used at London Airport, has been recommended for adoption in America as the standard system on all their main commercial aerodromes.
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In conclusion, my Lords, and to come back to F.I.D.O., I would say that there is no doubt that our system works. It now remains to test the economics and the logistics, very much in the light of what the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, has said. When, and only when, these problems—and there are plenty of operational problems, too, which I have not covered; there are plenty of them, but we believe that they can be got over—have been evalulated, and we think successfully, it will be for the airline operators, together with my right honourable friend, to decide whether it would be of commercial advantage to use the F.I.D.O. device in the exacting fields of the future of air transport. In conclusion, I want to thank the noble Earl for asking his Question.

OLDHAM CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Commons Amendments considered, and agreed to.