DENTAL RESEARCH AND SUGAR CONFECTIONERY (Hansard, 27 July 1960)

THE EARL OF WOOLTON
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM)
My Lords, the Medical Research Council's current annual expenditure on dental research amounts to more than £35,000. The function of the Council is research, and not prevention, but a considerable proportion of their expenditure on dental research is used to support investigations into the early development of dental caries at all ages, including the influence of biochemical and bacteriological factors and the rôle of fluoride, calcium and other minerals in tooth formation and resistance to decay. Since these problems are studied in both adults and children, a separate financial estimate for work in children alone is not practicable. The sum spent by the Council on dental research represents about 1 per cent. of their total expenditure on medical research. I understand that the value of home-produced sugar confectionery, including chocolate confectionery, during 1959, was £193,000,000 and that the total consumption, based on prices paid by consumers, was £259,000,000.

THE EARL OF WOOLTON
My Lords, I am very much obliged to the noble Viscount for answering my Question. I wish that his reply gave me greater satisfaction. I know that the noble Viscount has taken a personal interest in this matter in his official capacity, and has spoken about it in the country, but I wish that he could give a little more satisfactory information. He said, I think, 797 that £35,000 was being spent. Of course, £35,000 on the subject of dental caries in this country is—I was going to say insignificant; but surely it is ludicrous. Here is a disease (I am not making a speech, I hope) which may have so much effect on our health later on. I would ask the noble Viscount—and that puts me in order—whether he will take any steps to contact the makers of sugar confectionery to see whether, by an increase in chemical research, they cannot produce a confectionery which does not cause dental caries. Out of a turnover which the noble Viscount says is £259 million a year, there must be a great deal of extra profit which they might use to such a noble cause, and I ask the noble Viscount if he will inquire from them whether they would be prepared to undertake such research.

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
My Lords, as my noble friend indicated, I have for some time been concerned about the lack of dental research in this country, and he quite rightly said that I drew attention to it—I think over a year ago now—in a public speech out of doors. Unfortunately, I satisfied myself—and I have again satisfied myself in connection with my noble friend's question—that the cause of this lack of research is not lack of funds but lack of interest and enthusiasm on the part of both dental and scientific graduates. The funds would be there if the promising leads and the available personnel were to come forward. That is what the Medical Research Council is for. Incidentally, the figure of £35,000 which I mentioned could have been slightly misleading. My noble friend asked me how much the Medical Research Council were spending on this subject, and I answered £35,000; and this is quite right. But, of course, there is £750,000 a year going on dental work in the universities through the University Grants Committee, and I should estimate that, if the true figure was to be found for the whole country, probably about a quarter of that would have to be added to the figure of £35,000, and it may be a little more, to take account of work in private institutions. However, that does not invalidate my noble friend's conclusion that the total sum represents a totality of effort which is much less than the requirement the country really has.

§ LORD TAYLOR
My Lords, is it not a fact that the tobacco manufacturers make a donation to the Medical Research Council for research into cancer of the lung? Might it not be of value if the sweet manufacturers were to consider a similar donation, because one wonders whether the noble Viscount is quite right in assuming that the lack of finance is not the limiting factor. It may be that if a sufficiency of high-level posts are offered, then people may be ready to devote their time to dental research work. In other spheres the difficulty has been that there is no career structure for research in the particular subject.

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
My Lords, one does not want to turn away any suggestion which would result in private industries connected with particular subjects which may have quite important results on health supplying funds for research into the medical questions concerned. I should therefore think that, on general grounds, the noble Lord's question is a very reasonable one, and that his suggestion is one which might well be followed. But I should be less than candid with the House if I did not say this. All medical research, and indeed all scientific research generally, depends for its progress ultimately on the existence of promising leads and the availability of suitable personnel. This, as my noble friend said, is a subject about which I have taken a certain amount of trouble to ascertain the truth; and I can only say that on the evidence before me—which I have verified again since this Question was put down—I am satisfied that the trouble does lie in a lack of interest in the subject. After all, as the Minister ultimately responsible for the Medical Research Council, I should have already provided for them. But this is something I have not been able to do in spite of encouragement. And, incidentally, I am in a private capacity a trustee of other funds which would have money available for this.
The truth of the matter appears to be that there is a lamentable lack of interest in this subject; and I cannot say that too plainly. Of course I welcome the idea that donations should be given; in fact, the mere giving of donations may serve to arouse the interest. But I should be less than candid with the House if I did not stick to my original 799 attitude, which is that I think there is a lamentable lack of interest in the subject.

LORD SALTOUN
My Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount if the researches which he mentioned earlier cover the question as to whether the use of what are commonly called chemical manures—sulphate of ammonia and things of that kind—in the growing of roots, leaves or fruits, has any effect on caries? I have some information which leads me to think that that is one of the causes. I should like to know whether the noble Viscount's research covered that point, or whether it will be directed to doing so.

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
My Lords, we are getting into rather deep water for me. Without notice, I could not say what is the exact scope of the current research. As I understand it, there are two or three broad schools of thought in this matter, which is still rather hotly debated in scientific circles. One ascribes it to a bacterial action, and another emphasises a degeneration in a particular polymer in the teeth. Obviously diet must enter into it, and this was the significance of my noble friend's remarks about the confectionery industry. But I do not think much is known since the fundamental researches —which I am sorry to say were carried out a great number of years ago—which tended to point the finger at sugar rather than chemical manure.

§ LORD SILKIN
My Lords, is it not the noble Viscount's duty, in his present office, to see that an interest is created in this admittedly vital subject; and if, after to-night, he remains in his present office, will he use the very long Recess to inspire this interest?

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
My Lords, I can only tell the noble Lord that I have done my best to excite interest in this subject, both by private stimulation and by public utterance. It is my duty, obviously, to encourage interest among the scientists who are capable of taking an interest in this subject. I should not say that it was within my capabilities, even if it is within my province, to 800 compel it. The Recess is a very valuable period of time. Whether those who would otherwise take an interest will be in a particularly responsive mood during August, I do not know. But I know that the noble Lord's supplementary question will assist me in my difficult task.

§ LORD SILKIN
The Recess continues into September and October.

§ BARONESS HORSBRUGH
My Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount whether the result of the research that has taken place shows that if children's teeth were properly looked after we should not get these caries in the adult? Can nothing be done now about the school dental service?

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
My Lords, my noble friend has raised an important question, but it goes well outside the realms of research about which my noble friend asked his Question. I happen to know that my right honourable friend the Minister of Health has been concerned about the school dental service, where the problem is a different one—the shortage of dentists. But, of course, quite apart from research, I do not think it requires any research to tell us that if children's teeth are not looked after you do get damage, from want of care and attention, which cannot be repaired in after-life at all satisfactorily. Undoubtedly, if one forgets for a moment the field of research, which is my province, and embarks for a moment on the wider field covered by the executive departments of my right honourable friends the Minister of Health and the Minister for Education, it is obviously plain that the dental health of the nation, whatever the actual cause of caries, would be vastly improved by an improvement in the school dental service.

THE EARL OF WOOLTON
My Lords, may I thank the noble Viscount for the courtesy he has extended to my Question? There is such an obvious interest in the House on this subject that perhaps it may be convenient if, after the Recess, I raise it in another form, when we can have a general debate. I should like to do that. I am most grateful to my noble friend.