HL Deb 05 July 1960 vol 224 cc1006-8

2.39 p.m.

THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what changes in world politics have occurred which have led to the conclusion that the present is a suitable time still further to reduce our own already attentuated Navy.]

THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (LORD CARRINGTON)

My Lords, there has been no decision further to reduce the Navy below the planned size which was announced in 1958.

THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY

In thanking the noble Lord for his very curt Answer, I would point out that he produced only recently a pamphlet explaining the Navy Estimates, and in that pamphlet there is no mention made of the last batch of ships that are to be got rid of. On the contrary, they are not shown in his Appendix II, which gives a list of those which are to be dealt with this year. Arising from that Answer, may I ask a few questions? I did not get much out of that Answer. Is it not a fact that the Prime Minister, upon his return from the abortive Summit Conference, used these words: We must be prepared for danger. We must be ready to face new dangers, firmly and bravely"? Then, in his statement to the House of Commons, he improved on that by asking, "Is this a symptom of a change in Russian policy, or is it just an isolated event?" He added: "We must wait and see, but in either case we must be ready". Ready for what? Certainly not ready for war. For more talks, I suppose.

THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME)

My Lords, I was just wondering how many more pages there were in the noble Earl's first question.

THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY

I was just going to refer to you.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!

THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY

Because in your statement as Leader of the House you also echoed those sentiments about being prepared for war. It was in slightly different words, but nobody could misunderstand what you meant then. In regard to this last reduction in the strength of the Fleet, has any estimate been made of what it may mean in men's lives and the loss of ships and their cargoes when we badly want them? If so, might I know what it is? My Lords, I would point out to you that—

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order, order!

THE EARL OF HOME

Would the noble Earl allow me to intervene?

THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY

No.

THE EARL OF HOME

I think I must, with the noble Earl's permission, protect the House a little, because questions are asked for information. A certain number of supplementary questions are certainly legitimate, but the noble Earl seems to me to be taking up a great deal of the time of the House. Could he ask a supplementary question, and then, if he gets an unsatisfactory answer, ask another?

THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY

I got no answer at all. Referring to what I last said, about an estimate of the loss of human life and of cargoes and ships which we shall badly want, may I suggest that we prepare an epitaph for those who die doing their duty in these circumstances: Sacred to the memory of those sacrificed for political reasons.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I must confess that I find it a little difficult to answer the noble and gallant Earl's questions without making a speech, but perhaps I could sum it up by saying this. Of course, no First Lord of the Admiralty has ever said that he could not do with more ships, but a balance has to be struck between what we should like and what we can afford; and, taking this into account, I am satisfied that the available naval resources are being used to provide ships of the right kind in a properly balanced fleet.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, may I ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of two things? First, are they aware of the great affection we all have for the noble and gallant Earl who has tried to defend the Navy this afternoon? Secondly, are they aware that the noble and gallant Earl is not by any means alone in his feeling that the answer of the First Lord does not really supply an answer to the point that the Navy's need is to have sufficient strength to meet not only present commitments but all those that are likely to arise in the near future?

LORD CARRINGTON

Yes, my Lords; that is the whole purpose of the Government's policy.