BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (Hansard, 15 December 1960)

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name, which I understand is customary at this time of year.

§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH
My Lords, before we pass what is almost a formality, perhaps the noble Viscount the Leader of the House would forgive my importunity in asking, so as not to take up other space of time, what are the present contemplations of the Government on the Business of the House for next week, on Monday and Tuesday, as a timetable? The sort of rumors I have heard are a little disturbing.

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
My Lords, perhaps my noble friend will give this information.

EARL ST. ALDWYN
My Lords, I gather that the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition is referring to the continuation of the Committee stage of the Weights and Measures Bill.

§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH
I am.

EARL ST. ALDWYN
We have a great deal of work to do on this Bill, but I hope that we shall be able to get through a fair amount to-day. However, I think it will probably be necessary to sit after dinner on Monday, and, according to how we progress, it may be necessary to sit late again on Tuesday in order to complete the Committee stage.

§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH
I have already indicated to the noble Viscount the Leader of the House the kind of strain that is imposed upon a limited Opposition with a Bill of this length and this detailed technical character, sitting in Committee day after 604 day. To sit late at night two or three days before Christmas, with other engagements and work outside the House pressing on us, seems to me to be quite unreasonable. Reasonable and normal hours to deal with this matter next week would be quite right, but surely we have some limits to our endurance.

LORD REA
My Lords, would the noble Lord say whether the number of new Amendments coming forward exceeds those already decided by the Committee?

EARL ST. ALDWYN
My Lords, the total number is something over 300, but we are at least catching up on the new intake and there have not been any recently. I fully appreciate what the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition has said, but I feel that it will be to the advantage of the House if we can complete the Committee stage before Christmas, so that proper consideration can be given, between then and the Report stage, to all the various points which have been raised and which my noble friend Lord Dundee has undertaken to consider; and also so that there can be consultation. If we cannot complete the Committee stage till we return after the Christmas Recess, it will make it extremely difficult for all the points which have been raised by noble Lords on both sides of the House to be dealt with.

§ LORD SILKIN
My Lords, I fully appreciate what the noble Earl has said, and, of course, if we can finish in good time before the Recess, we shall all go away much happier. But the real difficulty is that the noble Earl has set himself what I have always regarded as an impossible target if we are to consider this Bill properly. I do not think that we do ourselves justice, or do the Bill justice, if we are going to sit indefinitely on Monday and Tuesday on a matter which requires very great concentration. The noble Earl who is in charge of this Bill, and his colleague, are no doubt indefatigable; but many of us are not, and we do tire after concentrating on this Bill for, say, three hours, and even a break for dinner is not adequate for the occasion. Also there are some of us who have other engagements for dinner on Monday and Tuesday.
It really is not doing justice to the Bill to try to force matters in this way. 605 We shall do our best, but, of course, Cleat are a great many Amendments from the other side of the House as well. We shall all exercise moderation in our speeches and in their length, but if it should become impossible, except by using means of this sort, to get the Committee stage finished before Christmas, we ought to postpone it until after Christmas.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords. may I join in these slight words of protest? I think the noble Earl will agree that, so far in the Committee stage, all have been very brief. I think he will also agree that none of the Amendments made could be regarded as anything but serious. There are only a few noble Lords who are taking part in the Committee stage, and apart from the Members who sit on the Government Front Bench, the rest of us are part-time politicians. We have to conduct our everyday affairs in the mornings. If we are to be asked to stay in this House until eleven or twelve o'clock on Monday and Tuesday night, at this time of the year in particular, it will he a very great hardship which I do not think the Government should put on Members of this House.
I would put one further point to the noble Earl, and that is that it is now four o'clock. If my memory serves me correctly, we have never started on this Bill at an earlier time. To put it crudely, we have been put at the "dog end" of Business for the three days of the Committee, and we shall probably be treated in the same way on Monday and Tuesday—I do not know. I think that it is quite outrageous that honest, loyal Members of your Lordships' House should be put to this hardship by being expected to deal with Business in this way. And I do not think that it is treating the Government Business in the right way.

LORD REA
My Lords, I must agree that there is some substance in what has been said from the Benches on my left. I understand, though I may be wrong, that Members of another place are sitting next Thursday. Would it not be a solution to follow their example?

EARL ST. ALDWYN
My Lords, to the best of my knowledge, another place is not sitting on Thursday. I should 606 have been only too happy to sit on Thursday—

LORD REA
Why not sit on Thursday and set them a good example?

EARL ST. ALDWYN
My Lords, the two Houses usually try to work in conjunction with regard to sittings. I should not like the idea of asking your Lordships' House to sit on Thursday if another place was not sitting. I fully appreciate what the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has said and I am very conscious of the full co-operation that all noble Lords have shown in dealing with this Bill. As has been said, it is a very complicated and complex Bill. I merely throw this out as a suggestion. I do not know whether noble Lords opposite would like to persuade the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, to postpone his debate until after the Recess and to continue with the Bill on Wednesday.

§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH
My Lords, at the moment my noble friend is not here to be consulted, but I will consult him in regard to the wishes of the Chief Whip, though I do not think that it is likely that it can be arranged. In any case, I do not understand this tremendous pressure to get this Bill through before Christmas. What is the great pressure? I do not know of any, except to suit the convenience of the Government for reasons about which we have not been fully informed. I am rather surprised at the suggestion from the Benches on my right, because apparently noble Lords who sit there have not been interested in the Bill up to now, except for one solitary noble Lord, who has kept watch for them over the Amendments all the way through. We are being improperly worked on this Bill. If we are kept here late for two nights in Christmas week, that is completely unfair; and I protest. The Government cannot expect the voluntary work which all of us have put into this Bill if they continue in this manner.

EARL ST. ALDWYN
My Lords, perhaps we could continue this discussion through the usual channels. I will certainly do everything I can to meet the wishes of noble Lords opposite.