§ 4.3 p.m.
EARL BATHURSTMy Lords, perhaps it may be convenient to your Lordships if I now make a statement which my right honourable friend has just made in another place. With your Lordships' permission, I will do so in my right honourable friend's own words.
"I should like to make a statement about police pay. As I told the House on 24th November, I referred the Report of the Royal Commission to the Police Council for Great Britain. At a meeting en 30th November the Council agreed to accept the scale of pay recommended for the police constable by the Royal Commission and to bring it into operation from 1st September. The Council also agreed that scales of pay for the other ranks should be negotiated as soon as possible, and that they should in due course take effect from 1st September. The agreement also covered certain minor points with which I need not trouble the House.
"While the Government fully appreciate the considerations which the Royal Commission had in mind, they do not accept all the reasoning and formulæ by which the constable's scale was determined by the Commission and by which they recommended that future pay should be governed. However, they fully agree with the Commission that the continued increase in crime, the need to strengthen the police, and the reassessment of constable's 33 duties together make it urgently necessary for there to be a very large increase in the pay of police constables relative to other members of the community. They therefore welcome the prompt agreement that has been reached on the Police Council which reflects great credit on both its sides.
"I am laying draft regulations giving effect to the agreement before a meeting of the statutory Police Council for England and Wales to-morrow, and I am asking the police authorities to bring the new scales into payment as soon as possible. My right honourable friend has asked me to say that similar action is being taken in Scotland."
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, I should like to thank the noble Earl for that statement. There are one or two points on it which require some elucidation. The first is whether one is to infer that although the Police Council have accepted the recommendations of the Royal Commission the Home Secretary does not entirely accept those recommendations, and that the proposed pay will therefore be something less than the recommendations, although a considerable increase on the existing pay. Could he tell us to what extent, in broad terms, the Home Secretary's views differ from those of the Commission? The other point I would raise concerns the draft regulations which will be submitted to the statutory Police Council. Will those draft regulations in due course come before Parliament, and will Parliament be in a position to express its views as to the adequacy or otherwise of the increases in the rates of pay?
EARL BATHURSTMy Lords, with regard to the first question the noble Lord put to me, in fact Her Majesty's Government have accepted the pay scales of the constable. I think that that: was made quite clear in the statement made by my right honourable friend at the meeting on November 30, when he said the Council agreed the scale of pay recommended for the police constable by the Royal Commission. I understand that it is certain formulæ and certain percentages and so forth, that are not quite approved for future negotiations; but the actual pay scale has been approved. Perhaps if the noble Lord would like to ask me later by Written Question I could tell him 34 exactly what those points are. With regard to the second part of the question, these regulations will not come before either House of Parliament as it is not necessary under the relevant Act governing police pay.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, I should like on behalf of the noble Lords on these Benches to welcome the statement, which I think we all agree is a good one. There are one or two questions I would ask. First of all, I take it that every effort will be made to get more constables back on the beat. In some districts I understand that this is entirely inadequate now, and I think we shall all agree in this House that the first element in the protection of the public is to get the policemen on the beat. Secondly, the statement is not clear as to the position of ranks higher than constable. Could the noble Earl tell us something about ranks higher than constable? Is there any indication that they will soon be dealt with in a similar way? Further, could he give us any information with regard to the position of police cadets. I have personally always thought those a good idea. Are they affected by this increase? Does their pay go up in relation to that of the police constable?
EARL BATHURSTTo answer the noble Lord's question with regard to police cadets, I am not certain; but either I will let him know immediately afterwards, or perhaps the noble Lord would like to put down a Question. With regard to ranks above constable, it is very much the concern of Her Majesty's Government, and in fact panel C of the Police Council is to meet on January 5. That will deal with all ranks up to chief inspector. And it is the intention, depending on how those negotiations go, to get the other panels, panel A, which deals with chief officers, and panel B which deals with superintendents, into negotiation as soon as possible. The noble Lord asked about constables on the beat. This point has run all the way through the Royal Commission's Report, and it is one of the most pressing reasons for the increase of pay. I am quite certain that my right honourable friend is entirely in sympathy with what the noble Lord has said.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, may I thank the noble Earl for the way in which he has dealt with the questions which I have put to him. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, is satisfied with the way in which he has been answered. In view of the fact, which I had not appreciated, that these regulations will not come before Parliament again, can the noble Earl make it absolutely clear that the reservations of the Home Secretary (using his words), that he does
not accept all the reasoning and formulæ by which the constable's scale was determined by the Commissionwill not affect the constable's remuneration, even if the Home Secretary does not agree with the method by which the Commission arrived at that scale, and that in fact the much-publicised increases will be operated as from September 1?
EARL BATHURSTMy Lords, I am quite certain that the noble Lord opposite realises that I have not been in on all of these negotiations and so forth, but, as I read out to the noble Lord, the statement definitely lays down that there is agreement with the scale of pay which has been recommended. Later in the statement I said that it was only the formulæ and certain details that were not approved. But I should prefer to check that, to be quite certain; and perhaps, here again, a letter to the noble Lord would suffice, or possibly he would care to put down a Question by arrangement.
§ LORD SILKINI shall be perfectly satisfied if the noble Earl will let me know, in case there is any misunderstanding in the interpretation of that reservation.
EARL BATHURSTI will let the noble Lord know straight away and he will be in a position to ask a Question.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, I personally should be most grateful if the noble Lord opposite decided to put down a Question, because many of us in the House would like to know the answer to that point, and a letter to the noble Lord will not tell us.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, I should be quite easily persuaded.
LORD HAWKEMy Lords, could my noble friend, perhaps at the same time, give some figures? Because I think many noble Lords would greatly like to know the effect on police recruiting of these vastly increased scales of pay, and to follow up that matter. Perhaps it would be possible for him to give some figures of the number of police at a certain date, and then periodically the figures of recruiting and wastage thereafter.
EARL BATHURSTMy Lords, I think that is really hardly within the scope of this particular statement, but I am quite certain that noble Lords will put down Questions at suitable times, or it may be that a debate could be arranged through the usual channels. In answer to the noble Lord opposite, I am glad to say that the pay scale for the police constable as recommended by the Royal Commission has been accepted, and the figures are, from starting, £600 up to a maximum, with the new increments, of £970. That is all in the Report. I am glad to be able to inform the noble Lord that it will not now be necessary for me to write to him or to explain this further to noble Lords.