§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I beg to ask Her Majesty's Government the Question of which I have given them Private Notice. The Question is as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether any further statement can be made with regard to the position of the Bishop of Johannesburg and the steps which have been taken to protect the rights of British citizens in the Union of South Africa.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME)My Lords, I will, if I may, deal first with the second part of the noble Viscount's Question. As I informed the House on April 5, the United Kingdom High Commissioner has been keeping in close touch with the Government of the Union of South Africa with regard to the rights and interests of citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies who have been arrested as a result of the emergency in that country. My honourable friend, the Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations, subsequently gave in another place on April 7 details of the report of the visit of the High Commissioner's representative to Miss Stanton in Pretoria Prison.
Since then the High Commissioner has informed me that the Supreme Court at Pretoria has given judgment that Miss Stanton has the right to consult her legal advisers, subject to any rules applicable from time to time at the place of detention. The Union Government have been pressed for details of the charges against Miss Stanton. Miss Stanton has also seen her brother.
A representative of the High Commissioner has also visited Dr. Elias Letele, a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies, in Kimberley Prison, and has found him in good health and well treated. He has requested the Union authorities to allow Dr. Letele to consult a lawyer without delay and to accord him certain other facilities. The High Commissioner has also asked the Union authorities the details of the charges on which Dr. Letele is detained.
1056 The High Commissioner is keeping in touch with the Union Government in both these cases with a view to obtaining an early decision regarding their release or their appearance before the courts of justice.
The High Commissioner is also in touch with the Union Government with a view to ascertaining whether any of the other arrested persons is a United Kingdom citizen and not also a Union national. It has now been confirmed that Miss Blumberg is a citizen of the Union of South Africa and not of the United Kingdom.
A limited number of persons have entered the High Commission Territories including, as the House is aware, Mr. Segal and Mr. Tambo. Both the latter are in the Bechuanaland Protectorate and there is no objection to their remaining there. The High Commissioner will in future have powers of discretion in relation to immigation into the Protectorates of Bechuanaland and Swaziland broadly similar to those which the Home Secretary possesses in the United Kingdom.
As I informed the House on 5th and 7th April, the Anglican Bishop of Johannesburg, Dr. Reeves, arrived in Swaziland early this month and from there asked the High Commissioner to discover whether the Union authorities intended to arrest him or to detain him under the Emergency Regulations, if he returned to the Union.
The High Commissioner has approached the Union Government for information which he thinks may assist the Bishop in determining his future course of action, and in the light of the exchanges which he has had with South African Ministers has been in touch with the Bishop again. It will, of course, be for Dr. Reeves to reach his own decision whether to return to the Union or not.
The services of the High Commissioner will continue to be available to any person in the Union of South Africa whose status and circumstances warrant it.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I am very much obliged to the noble Earl and very glad to note the report on the extent to which facilities at least of the beginnings of elementary justice have been sought for 1057 British subjects, and I think that is satisfactory. The position with regard to the Bishop of Johannesburg does not seem to me to be quite clear. Do I rather gather from this report that we do not yet know the answer to the question of whether he is likely to be arrested if he returns to the Union? I should like to be clear on that point.
THE EARL OF HOMEThe Bishop asked for a series of answers on a series of questions, and the High Commissioner obtained the answers and conveyed them to the Bishop, so that he could make up his own mind and decide what his future action should be. I do not think that at the moment it would be in anybody's interest to reveal the answers. It must be for the Bishop himself to decide his course of action.
VISCOUNT STANSGATEMy Lords, the answer of the noble Earl dealt only with Europeans. Are there any British subjects from the Protectorates or Nyasaland also under arrest, and, if so, what is happening about them?
THE EARL OF HOMEI did not deal only with Europeans because I dealt with Dr. Letele and other United Kingdom citizens. We have no information at the moment beyond the fact that the High Commissioner is trying to identify any United Kingdom citizens.
LORD REAMy Lords, could the noble Earl say whether there is any arrangement for extradition in respect of those who escaped from the Union into the Protectorates. Are they likely to be extradited back into the Union?
THE EARL OF HOMEThere is a Fugitive Offenders Act which operates both ways between the Protectorates and the Union of South Africa, but there is a constant transit, almost daily, of people to and from the Union to the Protectorates, and I should hope that action in respect of the Territories would be reasonable in regard to individual cases. Perhaps I could discuss this matter with the noble Lord later.
LORD REAI would ask the noble Earl to excuse me for not having given him prior notice of that supplementary.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether the discretion in relation to immigration which 1058 he mentioned also refers to Basutoland? He mentioned only Bechuanaland and Swaziland. Secondly, may I ask him whether he has given consideration to the suggestion that the administrative centre of the Protectorates should be moved out of the Union and into one of the Protectorates?
THE EARL OF HOMENo; I have not given consideration to that because I think there is the strongest case for the High Commissioner being in close contact with the Territories, although, as I shall be able to explain to the noble Lord, we have lately done a good deal of decentralisation which I think will help the administration. So far as the discretion given to the High Commissioner is concerned, of course it covers the three Territories.
§ EARL WINTERTONMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend the Leader of the House, for my information, and possibly that of others of your Lordships, whether the position of United Kingdom subjects in the Dominions is not roughly analogous to that of United Kingdom subjects in foreign countries? They are not immune from the laws and regulations of those countries, however drastic they may be, and all Her Majesty's Government can do, through their Ambassadors or High Commissioners, is to make representations on their behalf.
THE EARL OF HOMEYes, that is so, and that is why the High Commissioner is acting as he is. Of course people who live in another Commonwealth country accept the laws of that country, and the High Commissioner can help them only by making representations.
VISCOUNT STANSGATEI believe that the noble Earl has labour officers there who are assisting British citizens from these Protectorates or Nyasaland and guiding them in their work. Are not these people able to say whether any of these people have been put under arrest? Because they come in thousands to work.
THE EARL OF HOMEThat is one of the difficulties. I think there are some 180,000 citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies or British-protected persons working in the Union, either from the Protectorates or Nyasaland. Therefore it is a considerable task to identify these people. At the moment we have 1059 not identified any citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies other than those I have mentioned. But as they are identified, of course, the High Commissioner will assist them, in the same way as he is assisting those I have mentioned to the House.
§ LORD TREFGARNEMay I ask whether the noble Earl would agree that it would not be right to expect too much of the High Commissioner in this respect, in view of the fact that there are very few immigration posts on the highway between Swaziland and the other Protectorates and the Union, and that such posts as exist are manned exclusively by South African nationals?
THE EARL OF HOMEI think we can trust the High Commissioner and the responsible Commissioners on the spot to be humane in this matter. I have been in daily touch with the High Commissioner and I personally am filled with admiration of the way he has handled this matter and the sympathy he has shown. I agree that it would be unreasonable to ask him to do too much, but he is doing everything any human being could do.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHThere is one point I should like to put to the noble Leader, and that is the case of Miss Blumberg. She is a correspondent of a London daily paper, and the London daily papers depend very much for correct stories on their employed correspondents in South Africa. Her case may, it seems to me, in the circumstances, be on entirely the same basis as the Canadian citizen who has had to be released at the request of the Canadian Government. But how do the editors in London stand now if they cannot rely upon getting proper and normal Press reports through from their paid correspondents in South Africa?
THE EARL OF HOMEI do not think I could answer the question as to how 1060 newspapers could get news through. The Canadian correspondent is a Canadian citizen; he was in South Africa, and he has been released. But Miss Blumberg is a South African citizen, and therefore we have not the same status to intervene in that case.
VISCOUNT STANSGATEThe noble Earl said that he had difficulty in finding out what was happening to British citizens who came from the Protectorates. Is it not a fact that it is a criminal offence in South Africa to-day to report that somebody has been arrested?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, is the noble Earl—
VISCOUNT STANSGATEMay I have an answer, because that was stated at one inquiry, either at Sharpeville or the other one? The representative who also represents the Bishop said it was impossible to say more, because it is an offence to mention the fact that somebody has been arrested.
THE EARL OF HOMEMy Lords, I think the High Commissioner has contact with the appropriate Ministers and the Minister of Justice in the Union, and he will do his best to discover who are United Kingdom citizens. But this is bound to take time. Of course, it is difficult in present circumstances to find out what individuals are being detained and arrested.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that although he mentioned, in a narrow context the other day, that Bishops were no different from other people, some of us hope that the Bishop of Johannesburg will prove sufficiently different, whatever the replies from the South African Government, to go back to his people?