§ 2.35 p.m.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government the percentage of (a) consultants, and (b) consultants aged 50 or more, employed by Boards of Governors of teaching hospitals, who are in receipt of A and B merit awards.]
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, of the consultants employed by boards of governors, 33.5 per cent, are in receipt of A and B merit awards. Consultants also employed by Regional Hospital Boards are included in this figure. Her Majesty's Government regret that the information requested in the second part of the noble Lord's Question is not at present available in the form required.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord would be kind enough to give me the information asked for in the first part of my Question, without including the consultants and others employed by Regional Hospital Boards who are added on to the total, thereby confusing the figure at which I am trying to arrive.
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, this is, to a certain extent, a continuation of the amiable but inconclusive exchange that I had with the noble Lord last Thursday, on his Questions of that day. As I understand it, the noble Lord asks for an overall figure. That overall figure is 33.5 per cent. That is the true figure 668 in respect of consultants employed by boards of governors. If I were to subtract from that, as the supplementary question asks me to do, the proportion of consultants employed by boards of governors but also employed by Regional Hospital Boards, while I might be able to do that it would not be a true figure according to the noble Lord's Question to-day or his two Questions on Thursday last. If the noble Lord wishes me to mislead him in this way I will undertake this unnatural operation, though with the greatest regret; and I should like to make clear that I will do so as openly and transparently as possible.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, I think that the noble Lord has got it muddled again. I believe he is including in the figure persons employed as consultants by Regional Hospital Boards who are employed as registrars and in other capacities by boards of governors. Otherwise, there is no point in the noble Lord's subtraction sum. Moreover, is the noble Lord aware that a little calculation based on the tables given in the Report of the Royal Commission will show that the answer I require is 40 per cent., and that the answer to the Question which the noble Lord is unable to give is, in fact, 83 per cent.?
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, naturally I am not going to tell the noble Lord that he is muddled; but he is, in fact, mistaken—
§ LORD TAYLORNo.
LORD ST. OSWALD—because the fact is that the true answer to the first part of the noble Lord's Question to-day is 33.5 per cent. If he wishes me to make a subtraction, I can do that, not in relation to this Question but in relation to the two Questions he asked me last Thursday. I then gave him the overall figure of 59.3 per cent.; and subtracting from that the proportion of consultants with merit awards employed both by boards of governors and by Regional Hospital Boards, the figure is 50 per cent.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, I am very interested, because I believe the figure to be 80 per cent.
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, when the noble Lord questioned my figures the other day I checked them very carefully, 669 and on doing so was told that my figures were absolutely correct. If the noble Lord is interested in having the second figure for which he has asked, the overall figure for consultants employed by Regional Hospital Boards is 30.9 per cent. as I told him. If we subtract from that the proportion of consultants employed both by Regional Hospital Boards and by boards of governors, the figure becomes 24 per cent.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, I believe the last figure is correct.
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, I am delighted to hear it, but I believe that the noble Lord will find that both figures are correct.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, could a learned mathematical treatise now be published on this question so that your Lordships might clear it up?
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, is the "overall figure" what used to be called the total?
§ LORD UVEDALE OF NORTH ENDMy Lords, arising out of this Question, may I ask whether it is true that the only secret awards made by Her Majesty's Government are either in the Secret. Service Department of the Foreign Office or in the Health Service, and whether there is any parallel between the functions of these two Departments?
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, I think there is absolutely no parallel whatever between those two Departments. The fact is that it was agreed that the identities of those receiving awards under the awards system, should be kept secret, if the noble Lord wishes to say so—at any rate, should not be divulged.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, is not the truth of the matter that the thing will not stand up to scrutiny?