Lords Sitting of 25 March 1959

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock. The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Chancellor

ALL SAINTS CHELSEA BILL
Read 2a, and committed to an Unopposed Bill Committee.

LIGHTING OF THROUGH-TRAFFIC ROUTES
LORD HAMPTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask whether, in view of the Minister's reply to the debate on the lighting of through-traffic routes which took place on January 23, 1958, Her Majesty's Government are now in a position to report upon the progress of two matters in the reply—namely, the general survey of classified roads within the areas of lighting authorities; and the proposal that lighting authorities within the London area and other areas throughout the country should be invited to set up consultative committees with a view to the better co-ordination of lighting.]
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, the survey of lighting on all trunk and Class I roads is now being carried out with the co-operation of local authorities. About three-quarters of the returns have been received, but it will not be possible to draw any conclusions until the survey is complete and the facts analysed. A London Consultative Committee has been set up, but other areas have not yet taken similar action. My right honourable friend will, of course, welcome any steps which will secure a better co-ordination of street lighting.
LORD HAMPTON: My Lords, while thanking the noble Earl very much for his reply, may I ask whether it is the intention of has right honourable friend
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the Minister to continue to use his persuasive powers on those lighting authorities who could take part in this very sensible plan but who have not yet done so?
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: Certainly.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that this question of lighting is of first importance from the point of view of road safety, because one gets alternate pools of light and pools of darkness which produce most difficult conditions for drivers, particularly drivers of heavy commercial vehicles operating throughout the country? Further, the noble Earl's Answer rather assumes that it is being treated solely as a London question. I hope that this is not so: it is far wider than that.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: I am almost as fully aware of the various problems as the noble Earl is himself. On his point about this being a question of the London area only, I would point out that it is London that has started the ball rolling, but we have asked the rest of the country to follow wherever possible.
LORD GIFFORD: My Lords, may I draw the noble Earl's attention to the particularly bad example of Warwick Way, which is part of the new trunk road to London Airport?
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: I am not personally aware of it, but I will take the noble Lord's word for it.
LORD HAWKE: Will Her Majesty's Government consider sending a delegation to Rio de Janeiro to examine the lighting of that city, where there is no darkness at all on the main roads at night?

THE PRIME MINISTER'S VISITS
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, may I ask Her Majesty's Government the Question of which I have given Private Notice—namely, whether the Government have any statement to make on the visits of the Prime Minister, with the Foreign Secretary, to Paris, Bonn, Canada, and the United States?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, the answer is, Yes; and I think it might be convenient to fix a definite time, because I am not sure how long our Business will last, owing to Lord Teviot's illness. I think that at a quarter to four I shall be able to repeat a statement which is to be made by the Prime Minister in another place.

PARLIAMENT AND CURRENT AFFAIRS BROADCASTS
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I regret to have to tell your Lordships that Lord Teviot has had a sudden attack of phlebitis, and has been advised to rest and not to attempt to come to your Lordships' House this afternoon to move his resolution on Parliament and Current Affairs Broadcasts. I am sure that everybody, in all quarters of the House, will wish Lord Teviot a speedy recovery, and we hope to see him after the Recess.

SOLICITORS (AMENDMENT) BILL [H.L.]
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to make provision for an increase in the membership of the Disciplinary Committee constituted under Section forty-six of the Solicitors Act, 1957; and to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Viscount Brentford.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

SMALL FARMERS (SCOTLAND) SCHEME, 1959
THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (LORD FORBES): My Lords, I beg to move that the Draft Small Farmers (Scotland) Scheme, 1959, a copy of which was laid before your Lordships' House on February 24, be approved. This Scheme is the Scottish equivalent to, and is largely identical with, the Small Farmer (England and Wales and Northern Ireland) Scheme, 1959, to which your Lordships gave approval on March 17. There are, however, three main differences designed to take account of
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Scottish conditions. First, croft land, as defined in terms of the Crofters (Scotland) Act, 1955, is excluded because crofters can obtain special assistance under that Act. Secondly, this scheme does not specify a date on which small farmers are deemed to qualify. The Scheme for England and Wales and Northern Ireland had such a provision, but it was linked to eligibility for assistance in terms of the Supplementary Scheme which it is proposed to make under Section 2 of the Act. This, my Lords, is not needed in relation to a Scottish Scheme under Section 3 of the Act. Finally, hops and cider orchards are excluded from the table of standard man-days for the very simple reason that we do not have any in Scotland.
Although it is true that in Scotland there is a smaller proportion of small farm businesses than elsewhere in the United Kingdom, nevertheless we do have a substantial number, and your Lordships may be interested to know that since we began receiving provisional applications on January 17 we have received 794 applications under the Scheme, of which at first sight about 688 are eligible. We hope that, in drawing up improvement programmes under the Scheme, the farmers concerned will make full use of the Advisory Services of the Agricultural Colleges, and that the carrying out of these programmes will result in a substantial and lasting improvement in the efficiency of these small farms. My Lords, I accordingly recommend the Scheme to the House with confidence.
Moved, That the Draft Small Farmers (Scotland) Scheme, 1959, be approved.—(Lord Forbes.)
LORD WISE: My Lords, before this Scheme goes through the House there are one or two things I should like to say about it. I rather hesitate to enter into Scottish farming practices, but I think that something should be said about the need for further information in regard to the Scheme. I realise that the Scottish Scheme varies in the ways indicated by the noble Lord from the Scheme for England and Wales and Northern Ireland, but I should like to be quite certain of one thing. I think I am right, and probably the noble Lord will tell me so.
If he will refer to the Memorandum which was issued with the Scheme, at the end of paragraph 8, subsection (2), he

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will see the references that he has already made to the Supplementary Scheme for England. It also says that the Scottish Scheme to be made later under Section 3 of the Act will be fundamentally different, and that the link will take a different form. I understand that, but I want it to be quite clear that the Scottish farmer does not have the same privileges as farmers in other parts of the country in regard to supplementary schemes, as the noble Lord will remember that we have approved a Supplementary Scheme for England, Wales and the rest. It is quite clear, I believe, that the Scottish farmer will not be in the same position as the English farmer with regard to draining, liming and the other things which are mentioned in the Supplementary Scheme.
I notice with interest, too, that the Scottish Scheme does not include the hops and cider orchards, but I would refer the noble Lord to the fact that in that Scheme there still remain the derelict orchards. I hope that there are no derelict orchards in Scotland. I agree with the noble Lord that the small farmers should make every possible use they can of the Advisory Services, and I hope that these Advisory Services will be sufficient to cope with the applications which have been made. With those few words, and with some benediction on my part—because I hope the Scheme will prove a benefit to the small farmers in Scotland—I am glad to support it.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, in reply to the noble Lord, at present there is no Supplementary Scheme for farmers in Scotland.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

BUILDING (SCOTLAND) BILL
2.40 p.m.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
LORD FORBES: My Lords, I apologise for introducing new Amendments on Report stage, but I can assure your Lordships that this and the following three Amendments are purely drafting Amendments. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Clause 6, page 7, line 41, leave out "section two" and insert "sections two, three or six".—(Lord Forbes.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, I beg to move the remaining three Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Clause 6 page 7, line 43, leave out from "Scotland" to "buildings" and interest "relate to the power of".
Clause 32, page 30, line 12, after "twenty-four" insert "and";
Clause 32, page 30, line 12, after first "and" insert "subsections (2) to (4) of section".—(Lord Forbes.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of March 23), Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

HIGHWAYS BILL [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order).
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, before I move the Amendments standing in my name your Lordships may like to know that the noble Marquess, Lord Reading. has informed me that he regrets his inability to be present this afternoon, but has asked me to tell your Lordships that, if you decide that these Amendments should become part of the Bill, he is in complete agreement. Like my noble friend, Lord Forbes, I must apologise to your Lordships for moving Amendments at this stage, and I should like to start by reassuring your Lordships that none of those Amendments seeks to change the law in any way. All of them are, in fact, designed to ensure that the Bill more accurately reflects existing law. As the points with which they deal are somewhat technical, I think that it may assist your Lordships to consider them in groups and not necessarily in the order in which they stand on the Order Paper.
With your Lordships' permission, therefore, I will group together under the first head Amendments No. 1, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 16. The purpose of this group of Amendments is to ensure that the Bill reproduces accurately the provisions of the existing law which protects the works of land drainage authorities from interference by highway authorities. The Bill as it stands fails to do this now, because it omits certain protective provisions of the Public Health Act, 1875. Unfortunately, our attention has only just been drawn to this

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matter by the body representative of drainage authorities, whom we asked some time ago for any comments they might have. We are satisfied, however, that their points are good ones and that we have now got the Bill right on this particularly difficult aspect of what is, at best, a complex subject. With these Amendments, the Bill now reproduces existing law. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Clause 20, page 18, line 9, leave out ("catchment board")
Clause 288, page 213, line 38, leave out from ("seventy") to second ("and") in line 39 and insert ("three hundred and six and section (Saving for works, etc., of land drainage authorities)")
Clause 294, page 220, line 35, leave out lines 35 and 36.
Clause 294, page 224, line 1, leave out lines 1 and 2.
Clause 294, page 225, line 30, at end insert?—
("(6) References in this Act to a river board shall be construed as including references to the Conservators of the River Thames and the Lee Conservancy Catchment Board.")
After Clause 306, insert the following new clause—
Saving for works, etc., of land drainage authorities
(".—(1) Subject to the provision of this section, nothing in any of the provisions of this Act to which this section applies shall authorise a highway authority or council to use or interfere with any watercourse (including the banks thereof), or any drainage or other works, vested in or under the control of a river board or other drainage authority within the meaning of the Land Drainage Act, 1930, without the consent of that board or that authority, as the case may be.
(2) A consent required for the purposes of the foregoing subsection shall not be unreasonably withheld, and if any question arises whether the withholding of a consent is unreasonable either party may require that it shall he referred to an arbitrator to be appointed, in default of agreement, by the President of the Institution of Civil Engineers.
(3) This section applies to sections forty-eight, one hundred and three and two hundred and fifty-five of this Act and to the other provisions thereof which are specified in the Seventeenth Schedule thereto, being provisions which re-enact with or without modifications public health enactments.")
First Schedule, page 235, line 9, leave out ("catchment board")
First Schedule, page 237, line 1, leave out ("catchment board")
Twenty-Fifth Schedule, page 228, line 13, after ("sixteen") insert ("one hundred and seventeen").—(The Earl of Gosford.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, the second group of Amendments comprises Nos. 3, 5, 13, 14 and 15. The effect of these Amendments is to restore to the Bill provisions reproducing certain provisions of the Highway Act, 1835, the principal effect of which is to enable highway authorities to deal with damage to the highway consequent on the exclusion therefrom of the sun and wind by a hedge or tree. The provisions were included in the draft Bill examined by the Committee, who stated in their Report that they considered that the provisions should be repealed without re-enactment, as highways were not now so constructed as to be susceptible to damage by the exclusion of the sun and wind.
As the provisions were originally enacted in the days of waterbound roads, this seemed a reasonable view to take; and when I read their Report I was not surprised that they had come to this conclusion. However, it has since been represented to my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation that the provisions are in fact of great value to highway authorities, particularly in the South Western counties, and that these authorities would be at a disadvantage if the provisions were not re-enacted in the Bill. The effect of the Amendments is to bring the Bill strictly into line with the law as it now is. and we think it desirable that the Amendments should be made. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
After Clause 119, insert the following new clause
Damage to highway consequent on exclusion of sun and wind
(".—(1) If a highway which consists of or comprises a carriageway is being damaged in consequence of the exclusion therefrom of the sun and wind by a hedge or tree (other than a tree planted for ornament or for shelter to a building, courtyard or hop ground), a magistrates' court may, on a complaint made by the highway authority for the highway, or, in the case of a highway maintainable by reason of tenure, enclosure or prescription, by the person liable to maintain the highway, by order require the owner or occupier of the land on which the hedge or tree is growing, so to cut, prune or plash the hedge or prune or lop the tree as to remove the cause of damage.
(2) If a person against whom an order under the foregoing subsection is made fails to comply with it within ten days from such date as may be specified in the order, he shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable in respect thereof to a fine not exceeding forty

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shillings, and the highway authority or other person on whose complaint the order was made may carry out the work required by the order and may recover the expenses reasonably incurred by them or him in so doing from the person in default.
(3) No person shall be required by an order made under this section, nor shall any person be permitted by the last foregoing subsection, to cut or prune a hedge at any time except between the last day of September and the first day of April.
(4) If it appears to the highway authority for a highway to which this subsection applies that the highway is being damaged in consequence of the exclusion therefrom of the sun and wind by a tree or hedge or other vegetation growing in or near the highway, the highway authority may, at any time, with the consent of the owner and occupier of the land on which it is growing, prune or lop the tree or cut, prune or plash the hedge or other vegetation.
This subsection applies to any highway, being a trunk road or a county road (other than a claimed county road), situated in any of the following counties, that is to say, Wilts, Dorset, Somerset, Devon and Cornwall.")
Clause 133, page 105, line 25, at end insert—
("(5) If it appears to the highway authority for a highway to which subsection (4) of section (Damage to highway consequent on exclusion of sun and wind) of this Act applies that an obstruction is caused in the highway by a hedge or tree, or by a bank, or by any vegetation growing on a bank adjoining the highway, the highway authority may, at any time, with the consent of the owner and occupier of the land on which the hedge or tree is growing or the bank is situated, cut, prune or plash the hedge or vegetation, or prune or lop the tree or remove the obstruction.")
Twenty-Third Schedule, page 274, line 34, at end insert ("and")
Twenty-Third Schedule, page 274, line 35, leave out from ("sixty-one") to end of line 36 and insert—
("Section sixty-five so far as it relates to a hedge or tree which causes an obstruction in a carriageway or cartway.
Section sixty-six so far as it relates to the felling of trees.
Section seventy.")
Twenty-Third Schedule, page 274, page 275, line 34, leave out lines 34 and 35.—(The Earl of Gosford.)
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, I am not sure whether this matter has gone back to a Committee of the House. I gather that this Amendment is included in the general assurance by the noble Earl that all these Amendments seek to maintain the law as it is, but, of course, we have had no time to look that up and check it. Obviously, the offences which might be committed under the third Amendment might have serious consequences to people who have
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land bordering highways. If I could be assured that this involves no alteration of the existing law, I should have to be satisfied, but the practice which is being adopted to-day does not seem to be in general a very desirable one.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I think I can fully reassure the noble Viscount. This set of clauses was in the original Bill as it went to the Select Committee. The Committee considered the matter and inasmuch as roads nowadays are not apt to be built with trees near the edges, they thought that they could well be omitted. However, it was pointed out by local authorities in the South Western part of England that they would be at a disadvantage in not having these clauses, which were in the original Bill, and which have hitherto always existed. These Amendments merely seek to put back in the Bill what was in it when it went to the Committee.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, would the noble Viscount who leads the Opposition prefer that I should put every Amendment separately? I am only trying to meet the convenience of the House, but I will do that with the greatest pleasure.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, I have no objection.
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, there remain two further Amendments. The first is No. 2, relating to Clause 50. This is purely a drafting Amendment. The words it is proposed to take out refer to a subsection which is no longer in the Bill, it having been deleted at an earlier drafting stage. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Clause 50, page 45, line 12, leave out from ("or") to ("make").—(The Earl of Gosford.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, this is the last Amendment standing in my name. Clause 126 reproduces provisions of the Highway Act, 1835, which seek to prevent the pitching of traders' booths, and so on, on highways. Some difficulty was experienced in dealing with this provision as its somewhat archaic language (it refers, among other things,

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to "higglers") prevented its being inserted verbatim in the present Bill. It has been represented to the Minister that in the process of rendering this provision into modern language a defect has been introduced. In its present form the provision would not enable local authorities to deal with gipsies who become a nuisance by camping on the highway in the way they can deal with them now. Naturally we have no desire to put gipsies at a special disadvantage, and we are not proposing to do so; but it seems clear that, since they can be dealt with under the law as it now stands, the new Bill ought to reproduce the law on this point. This, I am satisfied, the Amendment effectively does. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Clause 126, page 100, line 3, after ("trader") insert ("or a gipsy").—(The Earl of Gosford.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of March 23):
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to signify to the House that, Her Majesty having been informed of the purport of the Highways Bill, has consented to place Her Majesty's interest, so far as it is concerned on behalf of the Crown, the Duchy of Lancaster and the Duchy of Cornwall, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Earl of Gosford.)
On Question, Bill read 3a; Amendments (privilege) made: Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING BILL
Brought from the Commons; read la and to be printed.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, my noble Leader informed the House that he would be making a statement at a quarter to four, and I suggest that we adjourn during pleasure until that time.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

THE PRIME MINISTER'S VISITS
3.45 p.m.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, with the permission of the House I will make a statement about the Prime Minister's and the Foreign Secretary's visits to Paris and Bonn, Ottawa and Washington. which the Prime Minister is making in another place. I will make it in the Prime Minister's own words:
"I must begin by expressing once again the gratitude of my right honourable friend and myself for the forbearance which the House has shown to us. I fear that these journeys and our visit to Moscow have meant that we have been absent from the House of Commons for the greater part of a month.
"Our discussions both in Europe and in North America have, of course, centred upon the urgent problems which face us in Europe. The most urgent question was that of procedure. On this I feel that we made very satisfactory progress in Paris and Bonn. Then in Washington the President and I agreed on the main points of our replies to the latest Soviet Note. The process of consultation with our N.A.T.O. allies is not yet quite complete. However, we hope that the Western replies will be delivered in the course of to-morrow. They will explain our ideas on the method and timing of negotiation both as regards a meeting of Foreign Ministers proposed for May and as regards a meeting of Heads of Government later in the summer.
"In addition to the procedure, we had considerable discussion in Paris. Bonn and in the United States, on the substance. We did not try to work out in detail a final Western position on all these problems, but we had useful preliminary discussions on the line of approach. There will be a further opportunity for discussing and agreeing the details of the Western position in Washington next week—first at the tripartite and quadripartite meetings of Foreign Ministers and then in the full N.A.T.O. Council.
"Meanwhile there is a basic principle to which we must hold firm. We must maintain in regard to West Berlin

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a position which will permit the two and a quarter million inhabitants to live the life of their own choice.
"We also discussed the suggestions for some zone of inspection and limitation of armaments such as was referred to in the communiqué issued after my visit to Moscow.
"In Washington and Ottawa we also considered a number of other subjects such as the work of the Geneva Conference on the Suspension of Nuclear Tests, which is now temporarily adjourned.
"Among the other matters which I raised with President Eisenhower were certain questions of trade and economics, some of which especially affect our interests. I reiterated my conviction that only the economic interdependence of the free world can give us all the expanding basis on which to build prosperity.
"Throughout these talks my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and I have felt deeply grateful for the friendliness and frankness with which we were everywhere received.
"I know the House will wish me also to pay a tribute to Mr. Dulles. We were fortunate to have two meetings with, him and I cannot too much admire the courage and spirit which he is showing.
"Finally, I should perhaps tell the House that we have, of course, kept the other Commonwealth Governments informed throughout these talks and will continue to do so in the months ahead.
"The problems which divide the West from the Soviet Union and its allies are certainly complex. I do not believe that they are insoluble. I am certain that we must make the most serious efforts to resolve them by negotiation. That process of negotiation is now well under way, and I hope that the House will feel that our journeys have contributed to this result."
3.49 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Earl the Leader of the House for conveying to us the statement made by the Prime Minister in another place; and we are, of course, all glad that the
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Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have safely returned from their journeys. Obviously at this stage this statement cannot convey much real information to Parliament. But there is a passage which I noted as the noble Earl was giving it to us, and that is with regard to the proposed meeting of Foreign Ministers and an ultimate Summit Meeting. Could I have an assurance that there is complete agreement now that the Summit Meeting will in any case be held, whatever may be the report received from the prior Foreign Secretaries' Conference? I think that is rather important.
THE EARL OF HOME: If the noble Viscount does not mind, I would rather not elaborate much on this statement to-day, because, as he will see from the statement, Notes are going from the Allied countries to the Soviet Union. They will be published to-morrow; and I think it would he really rather undesirable for me to comment on this statement, or to make a definite reply to the noble Viscount, much as I should like to do so, before that is done.
LORD REA: My Lords, may I formally associate myself with what the noble Viscount has said in welcoming the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary home, and also express the wish of your Lordships to be associated with the tribute to Mr. Dulles? There is one small question that I should like to ask. In what form will these communications be published? Will they be in the form of a White Paper?
THE EARL OF HOME: I will ask that, my Lords. I am not quite sure.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, the time of informing Parliament is rather important. We shall be adjourning for the Easter Recess now. I know that it is hoped that all the replies of the Western Powers will be received by to-morrow. Is the report going to be published during the vacation, or will it be submitted to Parliament on our return?
THE EARL OF HOME: I should like to look into that matter. Naturally, I am anxious to give Parliament the fullest possible information at the earliest possible time. I will look into it and will communicate with the noble Viscount as to the timing.

HALIFAX CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

ROYAL COMMISSION
4.30 p.m.
The following Bills, and Measures, received the Royal Assent:

Consolidated Fund,

Transport (Borrowing Powers),

International Bank and Monetary Fund,

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Family Allowances and National Insurance,

Emergency Laws (Repeal),

Electricity (Borrowing Powers),

Intestate Husband's Estate (Scotland),

County Courts,

Overseas Resources Development,

Angle Ore and Transport Company.

Truro Cathedral Measure, 1959

Vacancies in Sees Measure, 1959

Guildford Cathedral Measure, 1959

House adjourned, at nineteen minutes before five o'clock, until Tuesday, April 7, 1959.