HL Deb 25 June 1959 vol 217 cc253-5

3.40 p.m.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH

My Lords, with the permission of your Lordships I wonder whether I might raise a question on Business. I am very concerned about the Order Paper to-day. There are eighteen speakers to speak on Private Bills, which take complete precedence, and there are three Starred Questions, some of which have been on the Order Paper for several days. It seems to me to be unreasonable that, where there are opposed Bills on which there is going to be a debate, they should take precedence over the long-given notice of Members of your Lordships' House who have on the Order Paper Questions of importance relating to national business. I was wondering whether, while one cannot alter matters to-day, the Leader of the House would consent, if your Lordships agree, to have this question referred to the Committee on Procedure.

THE EARL OF SWINTON

My Lords, I should like to support what the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition has said. When we had our informal meetings I thought we had come to a practical conclusion, which was that the Lord Chairman—in whom we have great confidence—would look through all the Bills arid would come to the informal Committee if he thought there was anything arising on a Private Bill which was of particular importance; that that should be considered by the Committee, and that then it would come to the House. We have been proceeding on two assumptions: first, that we should confine ourselves to matters of real importance on Second Reading, and not to matters which it was obviously the function of the Select Committees in each House to consider, and, secondly, that if there was a matter which was worthy of consideration, that consideration should be given on Second Reading, and that we should not at a later stage of the Bill be faced with long debates.

I should like to reinforce what the noble Viscount has said. In another place, the procedure is particularly designed so as not to interfere with the Public Business of the House, whether it be the legislative programme of the Government or the rights of the Opposi- tion on Supply days, and so on. If exception is taken to a Bill an honourable Member in another place says "Object". When that has happened two or three times Mr. Speaker selects a Committee and says that the Second Reading of the Bill will be put down for general debate on such-and-such a day—it used to be seven days' time, and probably it is the same now. I listened to my noble friend behind me, and his speech had really nothing whatever to do with the Private Bill; it was a general discussion on railway administration—quite proper if a vote of censure had been put down to draw attention to the Transport Commission. If we are to have a great number of entirely general debates, I think it would be a good thing if the Committee, together with the Leader of the House, could have a look at these things and see whether it is really necessary. We might have to alter our Standing Orders in order to introduce in this House, with regard to Private Bills, something analogous to the procedure in the House of Commons.

LORD AMULREE

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Rea, I should like to support what the noble Viscount has said. I trust that the Government will give serious consideration to it.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME)

My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with the objective of the noble Viscount. I think this procedure creates difficulties for Members of this House who have put down Questions and have to wait several hours to have them answered. Therefore I agree with him, and I hope we shall at an early date consider this matter in the Procedure Committee.

I have even more sympathy with my noble friend Lord Swinton, because I think that the debates on Private Bills are tending to get out of hand a little, and we probably ought to look at this matter as well in the Procedure Committee. The informal arrangement was that we should debate matters on the Second Reading when the Lord Chairman gave us, so to speak, a yellow light that there was something worth considering; that the House should give its attention to the Second Reading. Of course, when the Bill has been considered—as is the case in the next Bill we are to consider to-day—by four Select Committees, then again it is unusual to debate these matters at length in your Lordships' House. Therefore I think that both matters might with advantage be taken to the Procedure Committee: the question of Questions on days when there are likely to be debates on Private Bills, and the question whether we could adopt any alteration in our procedure so that noble Lords would know more clearly when these matters would be debated.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH

My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Earl the Leader of the House. The procedure suggested will satisfy me immensely, but I must make it quite clear that have no desire to interfere with the rights of any individual Member of the House if he wants to raise a matter on Second Reading, except under such recommendations as may be considered first by the Procedure Committee.