§ 2.35 p.m.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, I beg to ask the first Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how many societies have been registered under the Small Lotteries and Gaming Act, 1956, and what is the total of the whole proceeds of lotteries conducted by such societies during the year 1958.]
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, I regret that this information is not available to Her Majesty's Government.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHIs it really true that it is not available, or is the Answer that the Government do not choose to collect it?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, this information is not available for the reason that there are more than 1,000 local authorities whose duty it is to register and record this information in their own areas. The view is taken that if the collection and collation of all this information were undertaken, the useful result it would achieve would certainly not be worth the labour and expense involved.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, I beg to ask the second Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps are taken to verify that lotteries or small gaming parties purporting to be conducted under the provisions of the Small Lotteries and Gaming Act, 1956, do in fact comply 88 with the conditions imposed by that Act, and particularly what steps are taken to ensure that no private profit is derived from such lotteries or gaming parties.]
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, the effect of the Small Lotteries and Gaming Act, 1956, is to exempt small lotteries and small gaming parties which comply with specified conditions laid down in the Act from the laws under which lotteries and the keeping of common gaming houses respectively are in general unlawful. If these conditions are not complied with, then the lottery or small gaming party, as the case may be, is unlawful, and it is the responsibility of the local enforcement authorities to institute proceeding in the courts in those cases where evidence is available to justify this course.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is able to answer the second part of my Question?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, I think that I have already answered it.
§ LORD LAWSONDo I understand from the noble Lord that the law is not being carried out in the case of either of the Questions that have been put to-day?
§ LORD CHESHAMNo, my Lords.
§ LORD LAWSONIt does not look as if it is.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGHDoes that mean that the Minister does not really know: that he gets no returns from the local authorities, either upon the registrations or upon any steps they take to deal with defaulters?
§ LORD CHESHAMPerhaps I did not make myself quite clear. I have already spoken about the returns of registrations and turnover. Certainly up till now there has been no evidence that there is any widespread abuse of this law. I merely tried to answer the noble Lord's Question by saying that it is thought that the provisions under the Act are sufficient to provide an answer to his Question.
§ LORD SILKINThis is an exceedingly difficult but very important matter. It affects a very large number of people, who make what are possibly small contributions, but they are entitled to be 89 satisfied that their contributions are being properly used; and for the Government to say, "We have no information, and it is not worth while collecting it", is really not satisfactory. Would not the noble Lord make representations by which it would be possible to give a more satisfactory answer to this sort of question?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, it may be as well if I briefly remind your Lordships just what the law is on this question. A society which, for one of the purposes of the Act, wishes to conduct a lottery, has first of all to register itself with the local authority. When it conducts such a lottery, it then has to render a return, which includes the whole proceeds of the lottery and the principal purpose, or purposes, to which those proceeds have been applied. The local authority then has to keep those returns for at least one year, during the whole of which time they must be available for inspection, free of charge, by any member of the public who wishes to inspect them. Then, in the normal way, if anyone has any complaint, he has only to go to the local police with the matter and it will be dealt with.
§ LORD HENDERSONCan the noble Lord say in how many cases proceedings have been necessary because of violations of the Act? The noble Lord did say that when there were violations it was for the law enforcement authorities to proceed. Can he say in how many cases they have had to proceed?
§ LORD CHESHAMI cannot give the noble Lord that information because I have not got it. I can only repeat that I have certainly heard nothing to indicate that there is any widespread abuse.
§ LORD LATHAMCan the noble Lord say who is the enforcement authority? Is it the local authority? And, if not, what authority is it?
§ LORD CHESHAMIt would be difficult, perhaps, to enforce this law without doing it through the local authority who, if they had reason to believe that things were not right, would themselves institute a prosecution. It is also for the local police to enforce the law in this respect, 90 but it is open to any individual member of the public who thinks that things are going wrong to lodge an information.
§ LORD LATHAMMy Lords, could not the noble Lord say whether local authorities themselves can initiate the prosecution, or have they to wait until some subscriber to a lottery asks that a prosecution be commenced? Secondly, could the noble Lord say whether the accounts submitted to the local authority are subjected to any kind of check or audit and, if so, by whom, and how?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, I think that this is perhaps going a little far. I should have thought that there would be little object in rendering returns to the local authority if they could do nothing with them. They are the authority in this matter, to see that the law is complied with, and I have no doubt that if things go wrong, they will take suitable action.
§ LORD LATHAMMy Lords, I doubt whether it is right that the noble Lord should assume that to be the case. Is he not aware, as most of us are, that under the earlier charities control Acts the local authorities had to receive the accounts but had no power to examine them or to take any steps in relation to any defects which the accounts might show? Later, the law was altered and reinforced in that respect. I judge that it is about the same with this.
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, as I understand the matter, if the local authority found any irregularity, they would put the matter in the hands of the police.