BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (Hansard, 16 July 1959)

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME)
My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ LORD SILKIN
My Lords, I rise not for the purpose of challenging this Motion, but to ask whether the Leader of the House is in a position to say which particular Bills he has in mind of which two stages will need to be taken on one day. Is this a purely formal Motion or has he specific measures in mind? If there are specific measures I think we ought to know of them before we approve this Motion.

§ LORD JESSEL
My Lords, before the Leader of the House replies, I should like to say that I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, for raising this point. Some of us are worried at the possibility of the suspension of Standing Order No. 41 in regard to the Legitimacy Bill. At the present moment, Clause 1 has been deleted. If, as the result of the Amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, on that day, Clause 1 is practically reinstated, some of us would like to have time to consider our views on the matter. That would be impossible if the Third Reading were taken immediately after the Report stage.

THE EARL OF HOME
My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, this is a Motion which we usually move at this time of year to allow us to put through a number of Bills which are usually uncontroversial. There is, for example, one on the Order Paper to-day, the Leith Harbour and Docks Order Confirmation Bill. But we had thought that the Legitimacy Bill might go through all its stages on Tuesday next, the 21st. I am in a difficulty here, which I think my noble friend Lord Jessel will recognise, in that there is only a limited time. We must not make it impossible, by any delays we have here, for the House of Commons to consider any Amendments to this Bill—that would not be fair to the promoters of the Bill. But if he will allow me, without any pledge at all, to look at this question and to consult, it is possible that we can make an adjustment.

§ LORD CONESFORD
My Lords, may I point out that the delay between the conclusion of the Committee stage and the Report stage which now brings about the problem to which the noble Leader has referred, is due not to the opponents of any clause in the measure, but to the promoters. There was no need whatever to postpone the Report stage until so late a date. If the Bill is radically altered on Report stage, obviously the Third Reading cannot possibly be a formal matter but must be most carefully considered.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH
My Lords, I hope that the noble Leader will stick as closely as possible to the view that he expressed on this Bill just now, because there are people on this side of the House who are also interested. There are views on both sides on this clause, not all on the one side. I think it is most important that this Bill, which has passed another place and which has had this important Amendment made here, should have a chance to be reconsidered as some of us propose to have it reconsidered, and not to have to go back to another place where it has already been passed, with such a controversial change in it from when it left there, and within such time that it might not be possible to get it through in this Session at all. I think it is most important that the Bill should become law, in whatever final form and I hope that, whatever 80 views a particular section of this House may have upon the rights or wrongs of the Amendment we made, we shall so arrange our Business that the Bill has a proper chance of being carried through.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
My Lords, perhaps I may say this to the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hills-borough. Surely it is important, from our point of view, that this Bill should be given proper consideration. It may well be that on the Report stage the Amendment which is now foreshadowed will be defeated and the Bill left in its present state, as it passed through Committee. In that case no delay will be involved. But in the event of that Amendment passing, this House would be placed in a very difficult position, because there would be no opportunity for further consideration. The Bill would have to go back to another place improperly digested by this House. It is not for us to consider what happens in the other House; our duty here is to consider what is the considered opinion of noble Lords in this House, whatever view they may take. I think it would be very unfortunate if, in order to make certain that the Bill passed in this Session, this House were denied the proper opportunity of giving full consideration to this very important matter.

THE EARL OF HOME
My Lords, the noble Marquess has stated the difficulty very clearly and rightly from the point of view of the proper consideration of this Bill. I cannot make a promise now. I think I can see again the difficulty of the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition and some of his friends. I think that, as Leader of the House, the only thing I can do is try to have some consultations, and see whether we can secure the right of the House to consider such legislation properly while also keeping in mind the importance of getting this Bill back to another place in time.

§ VISCOUNT STANSGATE
My Lords, could the noble Earl say whether he intends to leave the Legitimacy Bill as first Order on Tuesday of next week?

THE EARL OF HOME
My Lords, we have looked at the Business. The only Business with the Legitimacy Bill is the [Finance Bill, on which I understand 81 there will not be very much discussion, and therefore the Legitimacy Bill will be taken at a reasonable hour.

§ LORD CONESFORD
My Lords, when my noble friend considers the matter, would he bear in mind this technical difficulty? I think I am right that under the Rules of this House it is perfectly in order for any noble Lord to move an Amendment on Third Reading, but written notice of that Amendment must be given. How would it be possible to give notice of an Amendment which might result from what takes place on Report, an Amendment that might be desired by a noble Lord sitting in any quarter of the House, if the Third Reading were taken on the same day?

THE EARL OF HOME
My Lords, again, that is the sort of question I shall have to look at.

§ VISCOUNT STANSGATE
My Lords, will the noble Earl try to see that the wishes of the House of Commons, which have been quite clearly decided on this matter, are not defeated by juggling with procedure in this House?

THE EARL OF HOME
My Lords, I am sure that the noble Viscount would re-word his question if he gave it a little more thought. There is no question of "juggling."

§ LORD SILKIN
My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl, when he reconsiders this matter, to bear in mind that there is other important Business to come before the House which some of us would like to get through, and that we should not like that other Business to be interfered with in any way or the possibility of carrying on a debate on those matters being frustrated.

THE EARL OF HOME
My Lords, that is one more of the difficulties.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH
My Lords, I should like just to ask this question. Am I to gather from the course of events this Session that it is unlikely that any Business will be left over entailing an autumn Session?

THE EARL OF HOME
My Lords, I think that the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition, without drawing any inferences at all, may take it that that is so.

§ VISCOUNT STANSGATE
My Lords, is the noble Earl leaving time for discussion on Nyasaland if the Devlin Report comes in?

THE EARL OF HOME
My Lords, I should like to discuss that with the Leader of the Opposition. I think it is likely that the Colonial Secretary will have the Nyasaland Report, and, if that is so, I think probably we ought to readjust our Business in order to debate the findings.