HL Deb 14 July 1959 vol 217 cc1122-4
LORD CAWLEY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper. I must declare that when I set this Question down on the Order Paper I had a financial interest, but my interest now is remote.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied with the efficacy of the inducement offered to owners of non-exempt chattels in historic houses to transfer them to the Treasury under Section 30 of the Finance Act, 1953.]

THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (THE EARL OF DUNDEE)

My Lords, under the legislation referred to, it is possible for owners to offer to the State in satisfaction of estate duty collections of chattels for preservation in historic houses in public ownership. Where the Government decide that nonexempt chattels are suitable for acceptance, it offers to accept them at current market value, on which it takes expert advice. In cases of disagreement the matter can be referred to an independent valuation panel, under my noble friend Lord Rockley.

LORD CAWLEY

My Lords, while thanking the noble Earl for his Answer, may I ask whether it is not a fact that if the current market value exceeds that of probate, the estate is opened again and further death duties extorted in the case of marginal estates up to 100 per cent., so that Lord Rockley's panel is useless?

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

My Lords, in the case of non-exempt chattels I suppose that if they have not been previously valued and included in the estate and are aggregated with the estate, there may be some marginal cases in which a valuation would have the effect of raising the rate of death duty. Non-exempt chattels are not aggregated, but this question relates to exempt chattels, and I should like notice of any further question about that because I do not think that it really arises out of the main question.

LORD CAWLEY

My Lords, with due respect to the noble Earl, the words of the question are "non-exempt chattels".

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

My Lords, I am sorry; I am talking about non-exempt chattels. In the case of exempt chattels they are not aggregated with the rest of the estate. This Question is, of course, about non-exempt chattels. I should like further notice about the question raised by the noble Lord. I do not think that the question of what would happen if non-exempt chattels were valued highly arises out of this Question. I imagine that non-exempt chattels have already been aggregated before the question of whether they can be taken over or not arises.

LORD CAWLEY

My Lords, the question I should like to ask the noble Earl is whether, if they have already been aggregated and the art panel decides that a higher value should be paid, they are not re-aggregated and more estate duty is payable.

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

In that case surely it would be very unwise to have had them valued at a higher amount than that already accepted for probate.

LORD CAWLEY

My Lords, I would ask the noble Lord whether it is any inducement, to offer these chattels if the sum which The Treasury are willing to pay is merely probate value.

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

My Lords, I think that the noble Lord is making it a little puzzling. If the chattels had been valued at a certain sum for probate, surely it would then be for the owner to decide whether it is in his interest to accept that sum or some higher sum which might have the effect of raising the general rate on which his whole estate pays duty.

LORD CAWLEY

My Lords, I cannot say that I am very satisfied with the answer, but I reserve the right to raise the matter again at some future time.