HL Deb 17 December 1959 vol 220 cc526-9

3.0 p.m.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether any decision has been made, or will be made in the near future, as to the release of Nyasaland detainees, so as to enable them to be free, if they so desire, to prepare and give evidence to the Monckton Commission.]

THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COLONIAL AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF PERTH)

My Lords, as the noble Viscount will appreciate, the criterion which determines the time when the release of detainees is made is when the Governor is satisfied that their release will not endanger law and order. As has already been announced with regard to those who may be under detention when the Commission is operating, arrangements will be made to ascertain the views of those who so desire.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the Devlin Commission clearly were of opinion that there was no case to show that Dr. Banda, for example, was dangerous? No charge has been brought against him. He is a Christian man who has been interned for eight months, and whose evidence, if it could have been freely given, would have been very valuable indeed to the people of this country, to help them to understand the situation. Is it not this persistence of the Governor, supported by the Secretary of State, that has led inevitably to the boycotting of the Commission by these notable African organisations?

THE EARL OF PERTH

My Lords, I have nothing to add to the fact that the question of whether law and order or security in a colonial territory may or may not be endangered is for the Governor to decide, with the support of Her Majesty's Government.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

Is it not a fact that the Government are hiding behind the Governor, as they hid behind him on the Devlin Commission Report?

LORD OGMORE

My Lords, may I ask whether, should any of the detainees wish to give evidence before the Commission, full facilities will be afforded to them to prepare their case?

LORD REA

My Lords, might I point out that the wording of this Question is that we should enable them"to be free … to prepare and give evidence", which does not necessarily mean physically free from the bonds of their imprisonment, which we much regret.

THE EARL OF PERTH

My Lords, I think it would be useful to answer these two questions together. The answer is that they are to be given all reasonable facilities, as has already been announced.

LORD BOOTHBY

My Lords, is the noble Earl implying that the ultimate responsibility does not rest upon Her Majesty's Government? I do not think he can have meant that. He did give the impression that the Governor made the decision, and that Her Majesty's Government would back up the Governor in whatever decision he made. Surely the ultimate responsibility must lie with Her Majesty's Government.

THE EARL OF PERTH

My Lords, I think there is no need to elaborate that obviously the last responsibility for any of these things does lie with Her Majesty's Government.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

My Lords, may I ask a question, of which I have given the noble Earl notice, about the visit of Sir John Moffat, the son of a very famous father? Is it a fact that he desired to visit Dr. Banda and that, with the authority of the noble Earl's Office, permission was refused? Is it a fact that conditions were laid down that Sir John Moffat was not permitted to speak to Dr. Banda save in the presence of a Southern Rhodesian police officer, who would interrupt the interview the moment politics were discussed? Are those facts?

THE EARL OF PERTH

My Lords while this is not related to the original Question—

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

Very much so.

THE EARL OF PERTH

—the noble Viscount did give me notice, and I am glad to answer it. The noble Viscount asked for facts. But what is not a fact is that Sir John Moffat was refused permission to visit Dr. Banda. What happened was that he was told he might visit him under the conditions normally attaching to visits. He was not refused permission.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

Is that not rather an evasion? He was given permission, I understand, to visit under the ordinary prison rules. He is a man of distinction. He desired to speak to Dr. Banda about the situation with good will, and he was told that, unless a policeman was present, with authority to stop him, the interview could not take place, and that it would be stopped if he mentioned any political subject to Dr. Banda.

THE EARL OF PERTH

That is correct, my Lords.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, whilst regretting the attitude of Her Majesty's Government to Dr. Banda, may I ask the noble Earl whether Dr. Banda will be given the opportunity of discussing matters with colleagues of his political persuasion who are outside prison, in order that they may be able to present their case properly and correctly to the Commission?

THE EARL OF PERTH

My Lords, as I have already said, reasonable facilities will be given for those who happen to be in detention and who wish to give evidence before the Commission. I think the case which the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has raised depends very much on the circumstances, and any such request would have to be considered under the Answer I have already given.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

Has not the noble Earl already denied what he has just said by admitting that Sir John Moffat is not permitted to have such an interview?

THE EARL OF PERTH

No, my Lords, I do not think the two things are at all on the same line. In one case Sir John Moffat asked if he might visit Dr. Banda. What I have said is that if Dr. Banda or others who are in detention ask for facilities to give evidence before the Commission, their request will certainly be considered.

LORD OGMORE

My Lords, may I take it that in that case—a separate case from Sir John Moffat—they will not then have to have a policeman with them when they are consulting or discussing matters with their colleagues?

THE EARL OF PERTH

My Lords, I do not think those questions have been finally decided, because they have not arisen. The important point is that facilities will be provided.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

But what is the good of talking about facilities being provided when a principal adviser like Sir John Moffat asks for facilities and they are denied?

THE EARL OF PERTH

As I say, so far as I am aware, Dr. Banda did not ask for Sir John Moffat to visit him for purposes connected with giving evidence before the Commission. Therefore the question does not arise.