§ 2.36 p.m.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask the Leader of the House whether any progress has been made in the examination of Private Bill Procedure with a view to evolving a system by which notice might be given to the House, before the Second Reading, of any provisions in a Private Bill which are likely to raise controversy or are worthy of special notice.]
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS(THE EARL OF HOME)My Lords, your Lordships will remember that during the debate on the Second Reading of the South Wales Transport Bill last February I suggested, in answer to observations made by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, that we might get together, with the Lord Chairman of Committees, to see whether our procedure in regard to Private Bills might be improved.
After collecting the views of my own and the other Parties in the House, I asked the Lord Chairman for any practical suggestions that he might make. He has now reported to me that he has 1052 examined the matter with the officials of the House and makes the two following proposals: first, that he should himself draw up a note before the Second Reading of a Private Bill of the salient points in the Bill, which he hoped would provide sufficient information for examination; and secondly, that he should submit his note to a Committee representative of the Parties for their observations. This latter proposal would be in conformity with Standing Order No. 91 which provides that:
The Chairman of Committees may, if he thinks fit, direct the attention of the House … to any special circumstances relative to any Private Bill which may appear to him to require it".The Lord Chairman further suggests that his proposals might be put into operation as an experiment and that, for the time being, the Committee should be formed unofficially, without a formal appointment by the House. If the scheme is found to be useful, then in future the Committee can formally be appointed at the beginning of each Session.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, I am grateful for that Answer, which I think will meet with the approval of the whole House; and certainly I agree that the suggestions made are well worth trying. I feel that it might be worth while trying them straight away in the voluntary manner suggested by the noble Earl, although I think there will be only a few measures originating in this House which will come to be dealt with, and I take it that we should not wish to be troubled with measures that have gone through another place. I think it might be worth trying with these relatively few measures that originate in this House for the rest of the Session, and we can see how we go. The only comment I would make is that I hope that, whatever procedure we adopt, we shall have ample notice to study any Bills to which our attention is drawn as being worthy of particular consideration. It would not be any use our being notified on the day, or the day before. If we could have a week's notice, or something of that kind, that a measure is one that we ought to look at, that would be most helpful. Subject to that comment, I think the suggestions of the noble Earl are quite agreeable.
LORD REAMy Lords, I, too, am grateful to the noble Earl the Leader of 1053 the House, and I think your Lordships would probably like that gratitude extended to the Lord Chairman of Committees who, with the officials of the House, has taken a great deal of trouble over this matter and put forward a quite ingenious scheme. The position is slightly complicated, as your Lordships are aware, and there is some disquiet in some of our minds that matters are slipping through to which we have not given all the attention that might be given. This scheme will, I hope, clear up that difficulty, and as the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, said, I hope that it may be given an early trial.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEMy Lords, my experience of this is not great, but I had one sharp experience and I found that all the "right people" were against me; and if they had reported to a Committee, the Government would have come forward and said: "Here is the Secretary of State for Scotland, the Leader of the Labour Party and the Liberals who all disagree with you, and therefore you cannot proceed." Often the essence of the case of the objection to Private Bills is that they inflict injustice on some small power, like Leith, which I was then defending. Therefore, I hope that the noble Earl the Leader of the House will give us some reassurance about this Committee. I have noticed in regard to the Special Orders Committee that the Government spokesman sometimes has had the habit of saying, when an Order is introduced: "This has passed the Special Orders Committee. Why debate it here?" Nothing of that kind should, in my opinion, derogate from the rights of individual Members of this House.
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, whilst I do not dissent from anything that noble Lords opposite have said, I should like, ha ving served on a good many Private Bill Committees upstairs, to say one thing. A Private Bill is introduced into your Lordships' House for special reasons. It is special legislation, and often there are special reasons found governing that locality for making some variation from the general procedure under Public General Acts. I should be sorry if the Committee that is to examine these Private Bills were to take a rigorous view and say that all Private Bills must conform in all particulars with the system laid down in the Public General Acts, 1054 because that would to a large extent do away with the private usefulness of these Bills.
THE EARL OF HOMEMy Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and the noble Lord, Lord Rea, have found this suggested procedure helpful. I thought that the discussions we had between the Parties were useful, and that they might well be extended, as appropriate, to other features of our proceedings. I do not think the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, need worry on the point that he raised, because the function of this Committee is really, as I understand it, to give a sort of warning note to the House about certain principles or matters which might be raised in a Private Bill and which otherwise the House might miss or appreciate only too late. I am sure the Lord Chairman will also take note of the question of the notice and the warning which he will be able to give on any individual Bill. The Lord Chairman informs me that, if the House wishes him to do so, he is willing to report on Bills coming up from the Commons within the next month or so to give this suggestion a trial. But it would be for him, and us perhaps, to consider together whether that is proper, although the matter cannot formally and fully come into operation until the Autumn Session.
I think the noble Viscount. Lord Stansgate, is a little modest in calling himself a small power, as I understood him. It was really because he convinced me on a previous occasion, when he raised these matters in the House, that matters of principle affecting individuals could go through where injustice might result, that we adopted this procedure of discussion between the Parties. I hope he will find, as I hope we all shall, that it is an experiment which is worth while.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATESo long as it is understood that no report from the Committee derogates from the powers of individual Members of the House.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, I hope it may be possible to try this experiment as quickly as possible before we do anything more formally.