HL Deb 07 April 1959 vol 215 cc382-5
VISCOUNT STANSGATE

My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government how many persons, men and women, are at present in gaol in the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland without charge or trial; whose is the responsibility for the gaols and prison camps; what provision is made for the maintenance of the families of the prisoners and whether it is proposed to bring any of the accused to judgment]

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME)

My Lords, my right honourable friend informs me that the Governors of Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland have been consulted about persons belonging to those territories who have been detained. There are reported to have been 642 men and 8 women of Nyasaland origin detained under the Nyasaland Emergency Regulations, of whom 41 have been released; and 97 men but no women of Northern Rhodesian origin and 105 persons of Nyasaland origin are reported to have been detained under Southern Rhodesian law.

All gaols and prison camps are the responsibility of the Federal Government; but the Governor of Nyasaland has, with the agreement of the Federal authorities, undertaken the physical administration of holding centres and enclosures at out-stations. The Governments of Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland (and, for that matter, the Government of Southern Rhodesia) have arranged for the payment of allowances on the basis of personal need to detainees' families in the territories under their administration.

The question whether a prosecution should be initiated in any particular case is a matter for the Attorney-General of the territory concerned. Persons belonging to Nyasaland and Northern Rhodesia detained under Southern Rhodesian regulations will be returned to their countries as soon as the territorial Governments are prepared to receive them.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl, who has had a very heavy burden in the last few days, for his Answer. But may I ask on whose advice or information the Attorney-General will decide whether or not to prosecute?

THE EARL OF HOME

My Lords, the Attorney-General will make that decision on the advice and information usually open to an Attorney-General. It will be for the Attorney-General himself to decide, of course; but I will make inquiries as to what advice he will receive.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

My Lords, will it not be the natural function of the new Commission to advise the Attorney-General as to whether charges can be sustained?

THE EARL OF HOME

I should not have thought that that was the case.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

My Lords, if the noble Earl will forgive my saying so, I think it is important that we should have a clear definition of what the Lord Justice and his fellow-members of the Commission are doing. Are they there to ascertain whether or not these people were rightly detained or to make general observations on the state of public order in the Territory?

THE EARL OF HOME

If I remember correctly the terms of reference, they were to look into the disturbances and the causes of the disturbances, and the Commission will report accordingly. I do not think that this has any connection with the Question that the noble Viscount is asking, but if he wants any further information I will gladly get it for him.

LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON

My Lords, could the noble Earl tell us whether there is any limit to the period of time during which people can be detained without trial?

THE EARL OF HOME

My Lords, some of those detained will be tried, but some measure will no doubt have to be passed under which those who are not tried continue to be detained. Perhaps if the noble Lord will at some future date put down a Question I can make clear what is in mind.

LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON

My Lords, I am indebted to the noble Earl. There is one other question I would ask him: would the Commission which is proceeding have access to the people detained under these regulations?

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

Hear, hear!

THE EARL OF HOME

My Lords, I must ask for that question to be put down on the Paper, because it does not arise out of the original Question, and it is a pity to extend Questions.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

My Lords, the noble Earl has said that some further legislation would he required in the Territories. Will this House be given details of that legislation which, the noble Earl said, would supplant the need for the emergency? In particular, can the noble Earl give us some particulars of the new law which is contemplated to permit the whipping of young children?

THE EARL OF HOME

My Lords, I should like the noble Viscount to put all these questions down.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, we are all very glad to see the noble Earl the Leader of the House back safely after his journey, and we are quite sure that he will handle this matter in the most humane and sympathetic manner possible. We are still very anxious about the position of these detained people in relation to possible charges which may be brought against them and in regard to their being able to get proper legal advice and counsel during the inquiries of the Commission presided over by a British Judge. We are very dissatisfied with the present position arid the latest statement by the right honourable gentleman, the Secretary of State for the Colonies. Has any progress been made in that direction?

THE EARL OF HOME

My Lords, for the protection of the House I must not go outside the terms of the Question on the Paper at this time, but if the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition would like to put down a Question, I will of course give him full information on this subject as soon as it is available.