HL Deb 11 November 1958 vol 212 cc341-6
VISCOUNT ELIBANK

My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will state the amounts of public monies allocated to the Arts Council, the British Council, and public libraries respectively for the last financial year for which figures are available; whether, in deciding on the allocations, a co-ordinated survey was made of the activities of the foregoing bodies, in order to ensure that the total sum available for distribution was allocated in the best interests of the nation as a whole; and, if so, whether the report of the survey can be published to Parliament.]

THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (THE EARL OF DUNDEE)

My Lords, the grant-in-aid to the Arts Council this year is £1,100,000 and the total amount to be received from the Exchequer by the British Council this year is about £4,200,000. The public library system is a local authority service in which Exchequer money is not directly involved. Rate-borne expenditure on public libraries in the United Kingdom in 1956–57 is estimated by the Library Association at nearly £16 million. I do not think that it would be possible to make a survey of the activities in these three services a satisfactory basis for distributing a total sum between them. Their purposes are quite different and the biggest of them is not financed directly by the Exchequer at all.

VISCOUNT ELIBANK

My Lords, I beg to thank the noble Earl for his Answer. May I ask hint whether the Government's attention has been drawn to a leading article in The Times of October 9, in which it was asked: How is the proper total national expenditure on the arts to be determined? What we want above all is the facts. It is no use saying that the answer is "No", when very little is known. On that point, may I ask the noble Earl whether the Government would consider the advisability of appointing a Royal Commission, as advocated in The Times, which would bring out all the facts relating to the bodies mentioned in my question? I ask only for consideration.

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

My Lords, I should be glad to consider anything, but I rather doubt whether it would be fair to ask a Royal Commission to compare the three items of expenditure mentioned in the noble Viscount's Question—that is, on the British Council, on the public libraries and on the Arts Council. I think that only about 2 per cent. of the British Council's expenditure is devoted to art and drama, and the public libraries are supported from the rates. I do not think that one would want to rob the public libraries in order to give more to the Arts Council, although there may be a case for giving more to the Arts Council. Moreover, the amount granted to the Arts Council has been going up by about £100,000 every year recently.

VISCOUNT ELIBANK

My Lords, I beg to thank the noble Earl, but he hardly answered one of my points—that was, that a Royal Commission of inquiry of that nature would bring out the reasons for the allocations, and those we have not had.

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

My Lords, I should think that the reasons could be ascertained easily without a Royal Commission. The noble Viscount talks of an allocation, but there is nobody who allocates £16 million to the public libraries, £4 million to the British Council and £1 million to the Arts Council. They are quite different and unrelated items of expenditure, which seem to me to be irrelevant to each other.

LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON

My Lords, would the noble Earl publish, either in the form of a Parliamentary Paper or in some other form, the information for which the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, asks? Because there is considerable public misgiving about the inadequacy of the provision for such purposes as, for instance, the purchase of pictures for the National Gallery. Amounts allocated are so small as to make it impossible to maintain the collection in that and other national galleries at a standard which will prevent the exportation of leading works of art from Europe to the New World. I think that information of this character would be very helpful in coming to useful decisions on these matters.

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord that there may be a case for giving a great deal more to the purposes which he has in mind. I remember that the former Chancellor of the Exchequer told me once that your Lorshidps House was far more of a nuisance than another place in pressing him to spend public money which he had not got.

LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON

Very rightly so!

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

I replied that as your Lordships were not allowed to vote any money, we might at least be allowed to talk about it. But we cannot ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to rob the public libraries in order to give more to the Arts Council.

LORD AMWELL

My Lords, is the Minister able to say how the man in the street can find out what has been behind the blanketing of the Carl Rosa Opera Company?

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

No, my Lords, I am afraid that I cannot.

VISCOUNT ESHER

My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether it is not really the size of the allocation that is the trouble here? In continuance of their unusually enlightened action over the National Gallery site, could the Government not reconsider their reluctance to implement the National Theatre Act and to increase the Arts Council grant?

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

My Lords, by "the size of the allocation", I take it that the noble Viscount means the £1,100,000 allocated to the Arts Council, which is quite irrelevant to the other two items mentioned in the Question. This allocation has been going up. It went up from £300,000 in 1946 to over £800,000 the year before last; to between £900,000 and £1,000,000 last year, and to £1,100,000 this year. I agree that there is a case for making it greater still.

VISCOUNT ESHER

My Lords, the noble Earl is proud of that very small addition, but in a Budget of £5,000 million it is completely invisible to the eye. I would ask him to consider whether the proper setting should not be given to three of the greatest actors in the world, namely, Sir Laurence Olivier, Sir John Gielgud and Mr. Alec Guinness, all three of whom are working outside this country at the moment. Are not the Government rather ashamed of a situation of that character?

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

My Lords, if the noble Viscount were to move in this House that money should be voted for these purposes, he would find that he was not in order and that it is unconstitutional. However, I have no objection to the noble Viscount's exercising his right to advise, encourage and warn.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, following up the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Amwell, may I ask who is going generally to answer for the Government on questions of this kind? Will it always be the noble Earl, Lord Dundee?

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

I hope not.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

In any case, there are such grave doubts and misgivings in large sections of the public with regard to what is done in the actual spending of the money already granted as perhaps to necessitate a debate. The Carl Rosa Opera Company, after all their years of service giving music of operatic standard popular in the provincial cities, are suddenly finding themselves outside. If we could have an assurance from the noble Earl that we can have an adequate debate to cover the point of the noble Viscount and that of the noble Lord, Lord Amwell, we should be happy to put down a Motion.

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

My Lords, I think, with respect, that that is quite a different question from the one on the Order Paper; but no doubt it will be taken note of by the usual channels. With regard to the first part of the noble Viscount's question, I think the Lord President of the Council usually answers Questions of this kind, but I am delighted to serve the House in any way I can in giving your Lordships information.

LORD SALTOUN

My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether he is certain of the constitutional doctrine laid down in the last answer but one—because I have a strong feeling that it is not accurate.

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

I shall be delighted to hear the noble Lord's theory.

VISCOUNT ELIBANK

My Lords, do not these questions point to the necessity of an inquiry of some sort?

LORD HAWKE

My Lords, would not the Government speedily obtain the return of these distinguished actors if they reduced the surtax in this country to a more reasonable level?

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

My Lords, I am afraid that that is something else which the House of Lords has no power to do. This discussion, however, seems to be getting a little far away from the Question on the Paper.

VISCOUNT ESHER

My Lords, the noble Earl thinks that we are continuously unconstitutional and have no right to ask these questions—

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

My Lords, I did not say that your Lordships have no right to ask questions. I said that your Lordships have no right to vote money.

VISCOUNT ESHER

—because we have no power over finance. I thought that we had power to make ourselves a nuisance, even if we could not influence the Budget. If the noble Earl is reluctant to answer the questions which have been put, perhaps I can put it in another way. Do not the Government think that the prestige and status given to the opera should be extended to drama, so that our three famous actors are not tempted to go into foreign countries?

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME)

My Lords, I am afraid that I must remind the noble Viscount of the Question on the Order Paper. I am willing to agree that he can ask all sorts of questions, but they must be put down if they are to be dealt with.