HL Deb 18 June 1958 vol 209 cc1091-107

6.0 p.m.

LORD MOTTISTONE rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will take immediate steps to encourage the protection and worthy display of the standing portions of the Roman and Mediæval Wall and bastions at the north west corner of the ancient city of London; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, perhaps I can bring home to your Lordships the historical importance and antiquity of the City Wall by mentioning that it was repaired by King Alfred the Great more than one thousand years ago; at that time it was 800 years old. The subject of my Motion this evening concerns by far the largest surviving portion of the partly Roman and partly Mediæval wall. It stands on the north-west corner of the original City and stretches east and south from a corner bastion for a distance of about 235 yards. There are two other bastions which for a considerable amount of the total length were entirely hidden by later buildings until the latter were destroyed by fire in the war. It is not throughout its length all Roman or Mediæval, as parts have been rebuilt in modern times upon the original line. But it is possible, where the outer sides of those modern portions are buried, and have been for centuries, to about 12 feet below the surface of the existing ground, that some of the Roman and Mediæval work may survive. The bases of the bastions are certainly Roman, though they are of later date than the original Roman fortifications, which were without towers at that time.

The first plan for the rebuilding of the City after the war stipulated the preservation of this section of the London Wall with a strip of open space adjoining it along its length. and all subsequent variations to the plan have left this proposal undisturbed. I think it is agreed by everyone that this is a wise decision, and I cannot imagine that it will ever be intentionally abandoned. Your Lordships may imagine my consternation, therefore, when on taking a walk from my home nearby in the early morning of May 6 I came upon a bulldozer engaged upon demolishing a part of this scheduled ancient monument. I immediately informed the City authorities and the Ministers of Works and of Housing and Local Government, and I am glad to say that urgent steps were taken immediately to stop the operation, and a stout fence of scaffold poles and wire has now been erected around the bastion in question.

I should like to say at this point that, to my knowledge as a late Member of the Common Council and a City resident, the City authorities have always been most zealous in caring for their historic monuments, and no one has done more for their preservation than the City Engineer and the Keeper of the Guildhall Museum. I should, in passing. like to draw your Lordships' attention to the small but beautifully preserved section of the London Wall nearby which he and his helpers have preserved for our enjoyment in the churchyard of St. Alphege. It is all the more disturbing therefore, that in spite of his watchful care such a thing as the wanton act of damage which I witnessed can happen and the evidence of the history of centuries be destroyed in five minutes.

The trouble, is of course, that as at present seen to the untutored eye these monuments are indistinguishable, practically speaking, from the mass of scarred ruins that abound in the neighbourhood. It may be argued that this unfortunate accident is not likely to recur, as it was occasioned by the formation of the new road which is known as Route 11 and which adjoins the southern end of this portion of the Roman Wall. It therefore might be said that it is an isolated case. But I cannot accept that argument for a moment. Anyone who has any experience of building sites knows the indescribable mess that is unavoidably made. When this area comes to be rebuilt there will be deep new sewers and cables to be laid, very extensive excavations to be done, and vast heaps of earth and rubble will be piled up from old foundations. They will have to be piled up before disposal. In such cases and in such circumstances it will be almost impossible at times to distinguish the valuable remains of antiquity unless they are properly repaired and displayed so that their true value may be appreciated.

I am perfectly certain that unless we are to lose for good these extraordinarily interesting survivals of London's past, steps should be taken now to preserve them properly, rather than to wait until the rebuilding of the whole Barbican area is finished several years ahead. What is the point of waiting when it is agreed on all sides that the work will eventually be done; when it is agreed that the adjoining small strip of land is to be an open space or garden, whatever the exact layout of the surrounding areas may be; when it is agreed that we must have open spaces for rest and relaxation for City workers, and when it is an urgent need that we should do everything possible to encourage visitors to come to this country by displaying our treasures of all sorts to the best advantage?

My suggestion is this: the work of careful repair and worthy display of this unique monument should start at once. It should, I am sure, be begun by exploration to be undertaken by experts. Could not Professor Grimes of the Roman and Mediæval London Excavation Council be asked to start now, with the advice of the Ministry of Works and their help, excavating outside the bastions to trace the position and depth of the foundations and earthworks which lie below the surface of the present ground? It is more than likely that among other finds he may come across the berm—that is, the level space about 10 feet wide at the base of the walls—though I am afraid that the narrow V-shaped Roman ditch will probably have been entirely obliterated by a later and much wider Mediæeval ditch.

I know that he and his able colleague, Mrs. Williams, are ready and anxious to undertake this work in continuation of all the remarkable discoveries that they and their helpers have made within the Walls and for which no praise is too high. In this case, incidentally, there is no fear of their operations holding up the work of City reconstruction, because they will be working in what is now, and will always be, unbuilt-on land. When the level of the base of the City Wall and the ditch are established, complete and careful excavation of the whole of the made-up ground could be carried out so that the submerged portions of the Wall that survive may be exposed to view and repaired. Professor Grimes is confident that when this is done we shall be able to see and to trace the whole history of London's Wall from the earliest Roman times, through all the changes that have been made in the fortification up to the end of the Mediæval period.

As a matter of fact, we have one small piece of evidence to confirm this, for in the year 1900 a shaft was sunk on the outside of the corner bastion—that is, the bastion known to archæologists as Bastion 12—which showed that the base of the tower extended for eighteen feet below the depth of the present ground, the bottom four feet being of undisturbed Roman work with, above that, walling of a later date built of Roman tiles and with flints and courses of stone wedged up with layers of oyster shells. If the space originally occupied by the City ditch, which corresponds, curiously enough, I think, with the area already designated as an open space, is then laid out as a garden, there would be provided not only a delightful place of rest in the turmoil of the City but also the display of a monument of supreme interest to all visitors to London.

I should like to make it clear to your Lordships that I am not suggesting that there should be any faking or wholesale rebuilding of the ancient walls—I am certain that such a course is neither necessary nor desirable. Already sufficient of the original work can be seen above ground and on the inside faces of the bastion to make it certain that those three bastions are complete to their foundations, though probably in need of conservative repair and repointing to preserve the stonework, as has been done so successfully by the City Engineer at the Churchyard of St. Alphege nearby, as I have just mentioned, and in the same way by the Ministry of Works at the section just north of the Tower of London. But, on the other hand, I should like to make it equally clear that some parts of the surviving portions must receive some careful consolidation now if we are to enjoy them and preserve them for future generations. Some parts 'have been repaired to a certain extent, but it really makes one ashamed to see the state in which this Wall and its surroundings are left at the present time.

I urge that, although the care of this ancient monument is primarily the concern of the City Corporation, it should be looked upon as of vital interest to all of us. That is why I ask in the terms of my Motion that Her Majesty's Government will take immediate steps to encourage the protection and worthy display of these standing portions of the Roman and Mediæeval Wall. It is not for me to go into detail now as to what form this encouragement should take, but I feel that a concerted effort is needed to get things going. I hardly like to suggest that the City Corporation might find it difficult to provide the necessary finance, when one thinks of the vast outlay that is contemplated by them in the rebuilding and layout, of which this forms a tiny part, of the whole Barbican area, not all of which will be directly revenue producing. But lest this should be a stumbling block, I am perfectly certain that there must be a host of bodies and private individuals who would delight to help if some form of co-operative effort could be organised.

In another place on Tuesday of last week, the Minister of Works, in a Written Answer, promised that the Ancient Monuments branch of his Ministry will advise on the work, but he said that the timing of any scheme for preserving this stretch of the Wall is a matter for the City Corporation. But, my Lords, it is this question of timing that is of such vital importance, for it is the total lack of any sense of immediacy that has denied to Londoners and their visitors over the last fourteen years the enjoyment of a potential amenity which was most widely publicised and acclaimed when the evidence of it was first revealed in 1944. It is this continued procrastination which has already allowed a small part of the monument to be destroyed and which will leave the whole in increasing jeopardy until some stimulus is forthcoming, I hope from Her Majesty's Government, to encourage this work of national importance to be taken belatedly in hand. My Lords, I beg to move for Papers.

6.18 p.m.

LORD BLACKFORD

My Lords, I should like to say a few words in the warmest possible support for the Motion just moved by my noble friend Lord Mottistone. The proposition falls under two heads, and with one of them he has dealt, with his expert knowledge and professional experience, most adequately—namely, the archæological importance of the Roman Wall and the circumstances attendant thereon. As a trustee of the Tower Hill Improvement Trust since its foundation, I have been intensely interested in the Roman Wall. because one of the objects of that Trust is to preserve and to expose to public view a considerable section—some ninety yards, I think—of that Wall. That section is a fine example, containing as it does two small windows, a sentry box, and so on. But the portion the noble Lord has been describing is an even finer relic, with its two bastions in particularly fine condition and a third bastion, partially demolished, as the noble Lord has described, but no doubt capable of repair. However, I do not think it is necessary for me to say anything more about that aspect. I feel sure that any Government and any City Corporation will be anxious and determined to preserve what is, I suppose, the most remarkable archæological relic, at any rate in the City, and possibly in the whole metropolitan area.

The aspect which interests me equally —and perhaps even more so—is one which the noble Lord's natural modesty forbade him to emphasise, and that is the possibility of creating there an open space which is of such value to the citizens of London. Only the day before yesterday some of us were arguing in connection with the Park Lane improvement that the loss of four acres among the thousand or so acres of the London parks was a negligible matter. But the very reverse is the case, of course, in connection with the square mile of London. There, I suppose, some 750,000 persons or more come every day to do their work; and there they have their hour's interval in the middle of the day when they can gat some fresh air, and any open space in which they are able to get it is most eagerly sought after. There is one such space near Liverpool Street station—St. Botolph's. Bishopsgate. I went to have a look at it again only this afternoon. I suppose that it does not occupy more than half an acre, and some part of it is, somewhat unwarrantably, occupied by a hard tennis court. But on a fine afternoon like to-day every seat was occupied by people sitting about reading their papers and admiring the flowers. There is a similar garden behind the General Post Office, in the churchyard of St. Botolph's, Aldersgate. That also is a very nice place, which is invariably occupied. But, apart from these places, I am hard put to it to think of any other open spaces of any size.

The proposition we are discussing this evening affords an opportunity of creating a garden of somewhat similar proportions to those which I have just been describing. This area is now beginning to be built up. Great offices are under construction in the near neighbourhood, and in the course of two or three years, no doubt, the Barbican area will be built up again and the people in that area will be most grateful if they can have an open space added to it. 'The noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, has produced a delightful little sketch of his idea of the way in which a garden could be created there. He was kind enough to send me a photograph of it. I wish one could think that photographs were available to all your Lordships. It is a very attractive spectacle—a sunken garden beside these bastions. That reminds me of the really remarkable work which the noble Lord and his able partner, Mr. Paget, have done in the churchyard of All Hallows, Barking-by-the-Tower. There the churchyard of All Hallows is joined to the terrace, dedicated to Queen Mary, which has been constructed on the site of the old Mazawattee Tea Warehouse on the top of Tower Hill; and the combination of the terrace and the churchyard of All Hallows makes a really delightful and charming resting place.

The little garden that my noble friend has proposed is contiguous to the churchyard of St. Giles's, Cripplegate, which I am sure all your Lordships will know is the place where Milton was buried. St. Giles's, Cripplegate, has a nice churchyard, too, and I would strongly urge—indeed, it is the only reason why I rose to speak, apart from supporting my noble friend—that this garden should be joined on to the churchyard of St. Giles's, Cripplegate. That would be quite a simple thing to do, and it would produce an area that was really worth while. The churchyard, of course, should be cleared of its graves. In the City of London, and similarly crowded places, gravestones should all be put on one side, or something of that sort. If that were done, a really delightful area could be made. Although I have no wish to advertise my noble friend, I should very much like to see him put in charge of the rehabilitation of St. Giles's, Cripplegate, so that he could make as wonderful a job of it as he has done in connection with All Hallows, Barking-by-the-Tower.

After he has completed that job, I hope he will turn his great talents towards two other outstanding needs of the City of London. One is to clear the old burial ground of Bunhill Fields, thereby creating a park of 4½ acres in the most crowded borough of the Metropolitan area—the Borough of Finsbury. The other is to deal with the Church of St. Mary, Aldermanbury, where there is room for a lovely little garden in that churchyard. However, it is quite out of order for me to deal with those two to-day. All I am anxious to do now is to lend the warmest possible support to my noble friend. and I hope that the Government will take note of all that he has said and will expedite dealing with this matter. It only remains for me to apologise to the noble Earl who is going to reply to this debate in that I shall be unable to listen to his reply. I had an important engagement at six o'clock and had hoped that this debate would come on much earlier. I failed to reckon with the earnest thoroughness of our Scottish colleagues, and so here I am. half an hour late. I hope the noble Earl will forgive me if I am unable to hear his reply, but I gathered, in previous conversation with him in the corridor, that it is not likely to be unfavourable to my noble friend's proposition.

6.28 p.m.

LORD AMULREE

My Lords. I want to address your Lordships in support of the Motion put down by my noble friend Lord Mottistone. It seems one of the most remarkable things that, by the chance of war, this very remarkable monument in London should have been exposed in the way it is exposed now. Although we are agreed generally as to the impossibility of the monument being destroyed by any planning in that part of the world in the future, the tale which my noble friend has just told, about having, by chance, seen a portion of it being broken up by a bulldozer, shows that there is a great danger, unless something is done, of the monument being damaged; and that, I think, would be just as serious as its total destruction. One has only to think back to the time between the two wars, when there was a great deal of what might be called vandalism in London. Important and valuable buildings were taken away and sunk, with no trace left at all. Therefore, it would seem most important that, when we find a monument of this size, it should be insured against damage right from the start.

There is another point which the noble Lord, Lord Blackford, made and which I think is very important, and that is the importance of making a big open space in the City of London, an area that is so very congested. I should have thought that it might be an advantage, if the Barbican area is to be developed partly as a residential area and partly with office buildings, if the park or garden for it could be made first. Then as soon as the people moved to the area, there would be somewhere for them to go and sit, somewhere more comfortable where they could enjoy themselves. That would be far better than for them to find that the park had still to be laid out, a process which might mean a considerable amount of delay.

I was very pleased to see the progress that has been made with some parts of the Mediæwval Roman Wall—that part to which the noble Lord referred on London Wall, and that on Tower Hill. A great deal of credit is due to the City authorities for making those parts of the Wall available to the public. Finally, I support the noble Lord in urging that some kind of preservation work should be put in hand as quickly as possible, so that we shall not run the risk of this monument being destroyed, for that would certainly incur for this generation a very hostile feeling from generations to come. I should like to give my support to the Motion before the House.

6.31 p.m.

EARL BATHURST

My Lords, I am quite certain that all your Lordships will be most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, for bringing before your Lordships' House to-day this historical subject which affects every member of the City of London. I am quite certain that it will be regretted that there were not more of your Lordships in the Chamber to hear the interesting description by the noble Lord of the situation as it is to-day, although I hope that I shall improve that situation, in part or otherwise, by the end of my speech. If there are shortcomings in my speech I beg your Lordships' indulgence in that I am answering on behalf of my noble friend Lord Perth, who has inadvertently been called away from the business of your Lordships' House to-day. Should there be further shortcomings in my speech, it is because I spent so much time on this interesting site this morning looking into this work, instead of getting on with the preparation of the speech I have to make before your Lordships this afternoon.

It is almost impossible to describe this site without photographs, maps and plans, which I have in plenty; and with your Lordships' permission I will mention some of these photographs and plans and will also make them available to your Lordships in the Library, perhaps until a convenient time next week, so that your Lordships can study them in conjunction with Hansard where the relevant photographs will be mentioned. I have taken the liberty of giving photographs to my noble and learned friend who sits on the Woolsack.

I shall deal with the Question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, in three stages, as he did. First, dealing with protection, I believe the best protection which London Wall has to-day is the interest that members of the City Corporation are taking in the Wall and their care for it, and also the expert knowledge which is locally available through the City Engineer, who himself is a skilled and highly competent archæologist. It also happens that one of his ancestors built a very famous Cotswold stone church at Northleach in the Cotswolds in the County of Gloucester; and again it so happens that I am the hereditary Lord of the Leet of Northleach. So I am confident that anything humanly possible in the way of work in the City of London will be carried out by the City Engineer.

Dealing with more concrete physical protection, I would inform your Lordships that the bastions and walls remaining are all completely fenced round with wire fencing or chestnut paling, as the noble Lord opposite has described. Unfortunately, it is the small boys and the more intrepid sandwich-eaters during the mid-day break, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Blackford, who cause so much damage to historic monuments throughout the country. At first sight, I should say that we should need to have triple barbed wire all round our monuments; but it has been pointed out that the more fencing that is put up, the more obvious it looks in certain places, and the more people seem incited to get to the other side of it. This can be proved in places where there is a gate, which as the noble Lord knows, seems to offer a temptation for inveterate sandwich-eaters, or in this case small boys, to push their way through. I am assured by the City Council and by my honourable friend in another place that all possible protection is being given. I know that the noble Lord takes an after-breakfast walk through these ruins and past the Wall, and if he could get into touch with the City Corporation or the Engineer and complain of any damage that he sees, that will be giving a still greater protection to the Wall.

With regard to weather and decay, I would mention that there is a tremendous amount of rubble, earth and bricks on top of the Wall to-day and that must, no doubt, be one of the best protections from weather that the old Wall can have. Where the Wall is exposed, the City Engineer sprays it with a silicone compound once a year. This material is transparent, so that unless the work is actually seen in progress one would not know that it had been done. That is done as required, usually in November.

Again, when it is absolutely necessary the City Corporation have pointed-up the Wall and repaired the copings with cement or other suitable material to keep out rain and damage. That will be clearly seen if your Lordships will compare Photographs Nos. 17, 18 and 19 which are of Bastion 12, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, which I should prefer to call the Cripplegate Bastion, as it is nearest to Cripplegate. Your Lordships will then see its condition; or, if you will visit the Cripple-gate, you will see its condition to-day. If that is not possible, if your Lordships will look at page 2 of one of the booklets which I will place in your Lordships' Library, you will see a really good example of the amount of very hard (and I mean hard) physical work and skill put in by the City Corporation and their advisers in conjunction with all the bodies who have advised them on the Wall. I assure the noble Lord that that protection has been given, but should the noble Lord at any time feel discontented with the amount of physical protection that is afforded, I should be most grateful if he would either communicate with my honourable friend in another place or possibly, through his own ways and means, direct with the City Corporation, when notice will be taken forthwith.

"Worthy display" is the next term used in the noble Lord's Question. I am glad to be able to assure both him and my noble friend, Lord Blackford, who is not able to be with us in his place now, that it is the firm intention of the City Corporation to make a worthy display with some form of open space which will be available to the public, and for the Wall to be exposed for posterity. In 1949–50, a new situation occurred which made this somewhat more complicated. Professor Grimes, who has been referred to by the noble Lord opposite and who is a member of the Executive Committee of the Mediæval London Excavation Council and is also their Honorary Director of Excavations, found and traced the entire line of the Roman Fort which is more or less bounded by this north-west corner to which the noble Lord has been referring throughout his speech. Then, in 1955, Professor Grimes discovered that right in the very path of this new Route 11, which will be clear when the plan is seen, there were the remains of the Gateway into this Roman Fort; and one can well imagine that on one part of Route 11 the chariots of Boadicea (or Boudicca, whichever one may call her) were free to go as they liked with their scythes far enough from the weapons that might be thrown from the Wall. On the inside of the Wall, by Route 11, no chariots could have penetrated at the time of Boadicea in 62 A.D.

We now come to this question of worthy display. The noble Lord, Lord Blackford, referred to St. Alphege's church. There, I believe, and we must all admit, is a very worthy display of work by the City Corporation and their advisers. carried out with the co-operation of the highly skilled workmen of my honourable friend the Minister of Works. Their help was invaluable and for their services the City paid. It is the intention of the City Corporation gradually to introduce a similar scheme all the way round the Wall in the manner mentioned by the noble Lord opposite. I think you will agree, after seeing the photographs in the pamphlet which will be available to your Lordships, and which is really a record of the work that has been done on the Wall at St. Alphege by the City, that this open space, or garden of rest, as it has been described, will be a fine open space and one such as Lord Blackford would wish for.

The sketch of the garden which the noble Lord has produced and which was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Blackford, and which your Lordships will be able to see in the Library, is a magnificent sketch and one we shall all admire. But it would be impossible for the City Corporation to be tied exactly to any such plan. However, I hope I have made it quite clear that a similar type of plan is in the mind of the City. Perhaps your Lordships can imagine standing in this derelict waste, with Route 11 edging forward every day just a few more inches, with a car park being built for some 300 cars underneath the roadway; already in one space where Route 11 crosses the Roman wall, in the car park, one part of the Roman wall is preserved for posterity and is already completed in its place. Further west in the Roman fort, again in the car park, in a public place, will be preserved the foundations and remains of the gateway. I think that is a praiseworthy achievement by the city corporation, first to restore and then to preserve publicly all these remains that are in this Wall, in the London Wall.

I now come to the final point of the speech of the noble Lord opposite: can this work be immediate? I have great sympathy for all the views expressed by Lord Mottistone and the noble Lord, Lord Amulree. I am certain that we all wish it could be immediate; but I doubt (and it was shown to me on the site) whether that would be practicable. The noble Lord is an expert and I was informed by experts—and, of course, it is seldom that two experts ever agree. But I have no doubt that the experts of my honourable friend and of the City Corporation will read all that the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, has said to your Lordships this evening.

Can one envisage this Route 11 in a similar state of chaos to that so graphically described by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, in our debate the day before yesterday, when speaking about the end of the Cromwell Road extension? These high buildings on each side, some of which are going up now, are buildings only some of which, possibly, your Lordships would admire. Perhaps they will "grow on us" as time goes on. There will be more of those buildings to follow in due course. A battlefield in France" would hardly describe the scene as it is at present on the further end of the Route 11. That same chaos is bound to spread forward up to the Roman gate of the Wall, and then onward towards the City of London, with Route 11. The Wall is now protected so completely that, except for a very grave calamity, nothing in the shape of the accident which the noble Lord mentioned could occur again through working on the site. It is doubtful whether any place of rest could ever be made for some four or five years in the midst of all this chaos; and even if it could be, any intrepid resters would certainly be in a most dangerous position from failing girders or bolts, or from the other paraphernalia that litters a building site. I am confident that when the work begins in that alley, the City Engineer and the City Corporation will be able. bit by bit, to excavate down to a suitable level and find what they want to find at the base of this Wall; and they will be able to combine all into a suitable plan, such as was envisaged, and something on similar lines to the photograph of the noble Lord which your Lordships will see.

I only want to emphasise again to your Lordships that the City Corporation have done a tremendous amount of work and have spent a very great deal of their money upon the preservation of this Roman Wall. It is easy to criticise and to mention things that one would like to have done, but when your Lordships see the photographs I believe that you will appreciate the enormous amount that has been done since the bombing of 1940—and it seems an extraordinary accident that it was the bombing which enabled all this work to be found. I shall certainly ask my right honourable friend to look most carefully into the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, that pilot diggings might be instigated, if possible. from the City Corporation's point of view; and, if so, whether some form of protective fencing could be put round them. I will ask my right honourable friend to bring that point to the notice of the City Corporation to ascertain their opinion. But my right honourable friend is quite certain that the preservation of the City Wall is a matter for the City Corporation, and it is definitely the intention of that Corporation to carry out all the work and to make the place worthy of the great hereditament for which they are responsible to the City of London and, indeed, to the whole country.

6.48 p.m.

LORD PAKENHAM

My Lords, before the noble Lord exercises the right of reply, perhaps I may be allowed to say one word on behalf of my noble Leader, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, who was compelled to leave early and wishes me to tender his apologies to the Minister and to the House. My noble Leader asked me to watch the debate and to say something if I could think of something that needed saying; and in fact I can think of very little, because the speeches have been excellent. I believe that my noble Leader would have wished me—and this applies also to my other noble colleagues simply to pay a tribute to what has been said by the various speakers. Certainly the debate has been most valuable in the eyes of all of us who have been able to listen 10 it, and the opening speech, Of course, was particularly expert. I would feel that since it came from an architect and not a banker (I am not here speaking about myself) the Minister would do well to fall into line with what was suggested.

I would only add that I think the noble Earl who has replied has made a most delightful little speech. He expressed some doubt whether he had been able to prepare himself sufficiently for the ordeal owing to another engagement. Seeing how beautifully dressed he was, I thought that perhaps it was an official engagement at Ascot; but that appears not to be the case, and he has been studying the. situation on the spot—and very well he has done so. I should like to mention. in view of his opening remarks of diffidence, and if lie values our opinion as I hope he does, that those noble Lords on this side of the House are most happy about the style of his speech.

6.50 p.m.

LORD MOTTISTONE

My Lords, may I be allowed to thank the noble Earl, Lord Bathurst, for his kind and helpful reply? He has taken very great trouble to go into the matter closely, and I believe that this has been most helpful. I am sure that all noble Lords are pleased to hear, as I am, that the City Corporation fully intend to do something on the lines of this sketch I drew, which, I. would explain, is only meant to be a suggestion of the type of thing needed. The last remarks of the noble Earl, when he spoke about the vast buildings that are going up all round, and the difficulty of preserving anything while that is happening, pin-pointed the whole problem. As an architect, I realise the enormous importance of setting limits to a building site. That is something we are always up against. Unless we do that, the mess and trouble spreads. I think that it has been admitted by the noble Earl that that is what will happen. I am afraid that, unless we do take steps to limit the building area—by, for instance, the building of this narrow garden—the Wall and other valuable monuments will be destroyed. They are of interest now, but in four or five years' time they will all be forgotten and people will scramble over them and tear them down. I have seen it happen more than once. I should like to thank the noble Earl for the trouble he has taken and those noble Lords who have spoken to the Motion. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.

Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.