§ 2.47 p.m.
§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
§ Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.
§ House in Committee accordingly.
§ [The LORD MERTHYR in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1 [General grants to local authorities]:
§
THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (LORD STRATHCLYDE) moved in subsection (1) to leave out "otherwise than under section thirty of" and insert:
for those years under any enactment passed before this Act other than ".
The noble Lord said: In rising to move the first Amendment appearing on the Marshalled List may I say that it may be for the convenience of the Committee if I explain that, with the exception of those which are purely of a drafting nature, all the Amendments which stand in my name are designed to implement the undertakings set out in the White Paper on Local Government and Central Departments in Scotland, which was published last month and to which I referred in the course of my remarks on Second Reading.
§ Paragraph 3 of the White Paper explained that most of its proposals related to the relaxation of statutory controls; that most of them could be given effect to in the current Bill, and that suitable Amendments would be tabled for this purpose. This afternoon Her Majesty's Government are fulfilling that promise. The White Paper, which embodies the outcome of the review of the administrative arrangements carried out by a Working Party, in which were included local authority officials, was not published until after the Bill had been passed by another place. We are now taking the first opportunity to implement the undertakings of the White Paper. As your Lordships will be aware, the purpose of the proposals set out in the White Paper was to give local authorities the maximum amount of freedom to manage their own affairs. Amendment No. 1 on 392 the Marshalled List is purely to make clear the scope of the general grant. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 1, leave out (" otherwise than under section thirty of ") and insert (" for those years under any enactment passed before this Act other than ")—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 2 to 7 agreed to.
§ VISCOUNT COLVILLE of CULROSS moved, after Clause 7, to insert the following new clause:
§ Rights of Salmon fishing
§ " . For the purposes of the Rating and Valuation (Apportionment) Act, 1928, and of the Act of 1956, rights of salmon fishing (being rights of salmon fishing which are exercised by net or cruive and are thereby regularly exercised throughout that part of the year during which that method of fishing is for the time being permitted by law and in respect of which no revenue is derived by the owner or occupier thereof from any other method of fishing in the said part of the year) shall be deemed to be agricultural lands and heritages:
§ Provided that for the purpose of making up any valuation roll for the year 1961–62 or any subsequent year the gross annual value, the net annual value and the rateable value of any dwelling-houses, bothies, net stores, or other buildings or drying greens occupied in connection with the exercise of any such rights of salmon fishing or used or suitable for use in connection therewith shall be determined in accordance with the provisions of section six of the Act of 1956."
§ The noble Viscount said: The new clause which I have put down on the Marshalled List appears complicated but I will attempt to explain it to your Lordships as simply as I can. First of all, I must say that salmon fisheries in Scotland are at the moment divided into two parts; that which consists of the right to fish in the river and that which consists of a certain number of small huts, or even a dwelling-house and a drying green on dry land. With that distinction in mind I am suggesting to your Lordships that the following system ought to apply to the salmon fisheries after 1961: that there shall be no rates levied at all on the right to fish in the river. At the moment rates for this right are paid at 25 per cent., and this 25 per cent. is assessed on the actual amount paid by the occupier of the fishery to the landlord for the right to fish in the river. At the same time, if I am correct in my Amendment, so far as the 393 dry land part of the fishery is concerned it will mean that the dwelling-house on that dry land, or any other building, or the drying green if there is no other building than that, will pay 100 per cent. rates. At the present moment some of them pay 100 per cent. and some pay 25 per cent., because the interpretation of Section 46 (2) of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1929, is not very clear and some rating officers say that it should be 100 per cent. and some say it should be 25.
§ I should like to compare this suggestion with the position of agriculture as I understand it will be after 1961. The salmon fishery right in the river will be similar to the agricultural fields, on which no rates will be paid, but the dwelling-house and the other buildings on the dry land part of the salmon fishery will be the equivalent of a dwelling-house on a farm on which, after 1961, 100 per cent. rates will be charged, assessed at the rent which the farm is worth in view of the fact that it is being occupied in connection with the rest of the farm. I am now suggesting that the dwelling-house or other buildings of the salmon fishery should be assessed at l00 per cent. rates in view of their occupation in connection with the salmon fishery. I propose in that way that the salmon fishery and agriculture should be brought very broadly into line, except that where there is no dwelling-house in the salmon fishery they will still be charged 100 per cent. rates on their premises on dry land.
§ When I raised the matter on the Second Reading, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, invited the noble Lord, Lord Lovat, to produce any new information about this matter which has not already been before Parliament, and I have worked out some interesting comparisons between salmon fisheries, industry and farming. I should like to tell your Lordships of the comparison between them so far as rates are concerned. A salmon fishery at present rateable at £1,200 a year—that is, the old rateable value—will probably employ eight men whose wages for the year will be £3,500. A farm assessed at £1,200 a year will probably employ about twelve men and the wages will be £6,000 a year. An industry rated at £1,200 will probably employ about 350 men and their wage bill will be £3,500 a week instead of £3.500 a year as in 394 the case of the salmon fishery. To put it the other way round, if you have a salmon fishery which employs eight men, the rates are £1,200 a year. If you have an industry which employs eight men, the rates are about £50 a year. In between comes a farm which employs eight men, and the rates will probably be about £600 a year—half that of the salmon fishery.
§ There is no doubt that salmon fishery and agriculture are very similar forms of occupation. Both produce food, both work in the country and, as I said on the Second Reading, in Scotland, at any rate, both employ the same people because they fit in—peak employment in the salmon fisheries coinciding with the period of lowest employment in agriculture and vice-versa. But in comparison with agriculture salmon fisheries have a very poor deal. They have no subsidy for their crop; they have no capital grants for their buildings, and they have no drainage grants or any sort of subsidy from the Government at all. On the other hand it is a highly precarious occupation. As much as £15,000 worth of nets may be lost in a single storm and there is no method of replacing them except by drawing on profits which have been made; and even they are very doubtful indeed. That comparison between wages and rates is an interesting one because it shows the percentage of the industry's money that must be employed in paying rates in comparison with what is available for the rest of the industry's day-to-day concerns.
§ If this Bill should not be amended either as I suggest here or in any other way, salmon fisheries are going to be in a peculiarly prejudicial position. They will not only be paying double the rates under the 25 per cent. increase, but treble, and I should like to explain why this is so. Take a salmon fishery which was rateable at £100 per year. Before 1956 it paid 25 per cent.—that is, £25—and this was split up between the owner and the occupier equally; the owner paid £12 10s. and the occupier paid £12 10s. Between 1956 and 1961 the owner's rate is being removed, so that the occupier pays £25 in full. But in return for this he pays £12 10s. less rent to his owner, so in effect he is still paying £12 10s.; but in 1961 his rateable value will be raised to 50 per cent. and he will be liable for the whole of it. Therefore he 395 will pay £50, but he will still get only £12 10s. off the rent he pays to the owner; therefore he is paying £37 10s. That is treble what he was paying before, both now and in 1956.
§ I hope that some of my noble friends will expand on the importance of these fisheries, both from the point of view of depopulation of rural Scotland and also from the point of view of the unemployment in some of the areas which are at present threatened by the closure of these stations. Both on its merits and on this very important unemployment and depopulation issue, I suggest that this Amendment should be accepted by your Lordships. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
After Clause 7 insert the said new clause.—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
§ LORD FORBESMy Lords, in giving full support to this Amendment, I must at the outset declare an interest in salmon net fishing. Those who are employed in salmon net fishing, which is incidentally one of the oldest occupations in Scotland, come mainly from the Highlands and from the more remote parts of the country, and it is these remote parts which are slowly but surely becoming depopulated. This depopulation goes on almost unrecognised except by those who live there and see families and individuals packing their belongings, never to return again to the land or to the parts of the country which their ancestors once inhabited. Too often to-day it is the big things that catch the public eye. To many people figures can be most misleading. For instance, if we hear that 600 people have become unemployed in an area having a population of 10,000, there would, I think, be an outcry at once; but if we hear that six men in a little fishing village of one hundred inhabitants have lost their employment, this goes by almost unrecognised. It is just a question of raising it to attract more notice. In this way the Highlands and more remote areas of Scotland have suffered and are now continuing to suffer.
If this rating is increased in any way, there is little doubt that more salmon net stations will have to close down and that the men from these stations will be turned out of their employment. And they will not return to the Highlands; they will go to seek employment in the industrial parts of the country. Surely 396 the issue before us is this. We have heard so often from Government circles that the depopulation of the Highlands and the remote parts of the country is to be deplored. Is this really meant? Or are those responsible prepared to see one day—and that day may not be very far distant—the Highlands and the remote parts of Scotland inhabited by only a few nomadic clansmen? If not, the line that has to be drawn somewhere, and I suggest to your Lordships that the line should be drawn now by accepting this Amendment.
§ LORD LOVATI should like to congratulate my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross who has more than summed up the situation. He has given facts and figures which hardly need further clarification, but, speaking as a Highlander, I should like the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, to know (perhaps he already knows because he was in Inverness last week) that in the Moray Firth area alone there are nearly 250 men who work the salmon nets as a seasonal occupation. They represent the backbone of the crofting counties, and they are, in fact, crofters. It would be a terrible thing to see their livelihood destroyed for a principle with such a small stake, for a sum of money which, in its total amount, runs between £1½ and £2 million of net-caught salmon per annum.
A similar Amendment to that now before your Lordships was defeated by only four votes in another place, where the very word "salmon" causes considerable feeling between the two sides of the House. But I think that in the calmer light of your Lordships' House noble Lords both on this side and on the Benches opposite are quite ready to eat salmon caught in a net—even if they do not agree about how they are caught, and who catches them by rod—hot or cold, smoked or fresh. I assure your Lordships that in all equity, in a precarious living such as that gained from salmon netting there is no resemblance to an industry under industrial rating. I should like to see the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, out on the Culbin Sands in waders on a cold spring morning, watching the salmon running up the middle of the Firth for two or three weeks on end and seeing his tackle swept away or filled with seaweed and shellfish. A company in which 397 I have an interest paid out £25,000 in wages to eighty men last year, and lost money on the venture; and many smaller organisations of this kind are working a precarious living up and down the coast. I cannot see, I am sure that your Lordships cannot see, how an industrial rate can be applied to salmon netting, and I hope that my noble friend will have a Division on this issue.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVENI should like to support my compatriots who have spoken most ably on this matter. The point that I want to stress, and which I have stressed before, is unemployment. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, in his reply to the Second Reading debate (he will correct me if I misquote him), said that he hoped for the best but he did not think that the re-rating of salmon net fishings would cause any unemployment. I can tell him that there is a netting station on the coast of Kincardineshire which, according to the owners and operators, will definitely be closed down if re-rating comes into effect. I should say that while I own some stretches of nets on the coast, I do nothing towards running them; but those who do, no matter how small the return, find the job more difficult than it used to be. Legislation of this kind, which is surely in the interest of tidiness, has the flavour of twisting the tail of a dog that cannot bark. I shall support the Amendment, and I hope that my noble friend takes it to a Division.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEThe effect of accepting this Amendment would be that until revaluation in 1961 salmon net fishings would be rated on one-eighth of their gross annual value. From 1961 agricultural subjects will not be rateable at all, but farmhouses will be valued in full, like any other houses, except that valuation will be on the assumption that they cannot be occupied otherwise than in connection with agriculture. The Amendment seeks to apply this arrangement to salmon net fishings by providing that any dwellinghouses, bothies, net stores or other building or drying greens occupied in connection with the exercise of the salmon fishing should be fully rated.
The history of the Scottish system is not straightforward. The conclusions as regards salmon net fishings appear to be, 398 first, that the salmon net fishings and land used for agricultural purposes were assessed on the same basis only for the purpose of the burgh general assessment (which was, of course, only part of the rates payable in burghs) and only from the year 1892 until 1926. Apart from this, relief from the burgh general assessment and any concessions from individual parishes by way of "classification", which began to fall into desuetude as long ago as 1896, salmon fishings were fully rated until 1929, though there had been an attempt to give them the deductions provided for industry in the First Schedule to the 1926 Act. From 1929 up to date the fishings have been de-rated with the rest of industry to 25 per cent. of their net annual value.
The reasons against the acceptance of this Amendment appear to me to be that in practice the ancillary subjects are already separately, as the noble Viscount said, and fully rated, and the effect of the Amendment therefore would be to de-rate the actual salmon net fishings entirely. Then there is the argument that the fishings are analogous to agriculture.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEWell, that is open to dispute. After all, the definition of agricultural lands and heritages has remained practically unaltered since 1896, and it has not been held so far that salmon net fishings could reasonably come within this definition. Further, to make an exception for one industry, it seems to me, would impair the general principle that industry as a whole should be re-rated to 50 per cent. If the noble Lord will allow me to continue, since 1929 the salmon fishing industry has been satisfied to be classed as industry and Her Majesty's Government do not see any good reason to change over to agriculture at this moment.
§ LORD LOVATI interject only to ask how does the noble Lord reconcile the fact that the Minister in charge of agriculture is the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food?
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEBy "the Minister in charge of Agriculture and Fisheries" no doubt the noble Lord is referring to my right honourable friend, the Secretary of State for Scotland.
§ LORD LOVATThey come under the same heading.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEMaybe they do; but I do not see that that is an argument why they should be treated in the same way. As I say, the fishing people have been quite satisfied since 1929 to be rated as industry. And now the change! I cannot see that any good reason for it has been given.
The noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, spoke about the owners' and occupiers' rates. I would say to him that it was made clear during the passage of the Valuation and Rating (Scotland) Act, 1956, that the abolition of owners' rates under that Act would not, by itself, lead to any increase in the tenants' total outgoings for rent and rates. The noble Viscount will remember that the rent was reduced to compensate for the increase in occupiers' rates. The noble Lord, Lord Forbes, the noble Lord, Lord Lovat, and the noble Viscount, Lord Stonehaven, all spoke feelingly of depopulation and unemployment. They ought to know, and I am sure they do, that Her Majesty's Government are very much concerned about depopulation in the Highlands and Islands and are doing everything possible to maintain the population which is still there and, indeed, to attract people to go back to those parts of our country. But no one has produced a single figure or any relevant fact vouched for in any way to prove that depopulation will result; nor, with all due deference to the noble Viscount, Lord Stonehaven, has anything been produced to prove that any fishery will close down. The noble Viscount made a statement to the effect that he knows a certain fishery will close down in the event of this Bill going through. All I can say is that it must be a poor fishery, because, after all, the amount of money which will go out in re-rating is not all that serious so far as any efficient and profitable business is concerned.
The noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, has produced a number of figures; I have not had an opportunity of studying them, and they seem to me to be somewhat difficult to understand. I would say to him that salmon net fishings and industry are and will be rated on the same basis; and, with all respect, I do not quite follow how the wage bill 400 comes into the argument. Nevertheless, in view of the figures the noble Viscount has produced, which, as I say, I have not yet studied, I am quite willing to look at them; and while I do not hold out much hope, in the event of their containing anything fresh that has not been taken into consideration in another place I will see what can be done on the Report stage. In the meantime, I would ask the Committee not to pass this Amendment, and in view of the assurance I have given I hope my noble friend will withdraw it.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMay I intervene to say that I am glad to hear the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, say he will look at this matter again between now and the Report stage. I say that, not that I myself could declare that I am wholly against his point of view at the moment, but because we on this side, leaving aside the question of legislative history and the principle of the thing, have been impressed by the manner in which the Amendment has been presented. I think the noble Lords who presented the case were most persuasive. The speech of the noble Lord, Lord Lovat, reminded me of the debate we had the other day when he gave striking figures of the depopulation of the northern part of Scotland, where, over a matter of years, the population, I think he said, had nearly halved. That is a serious state of affairs, and if there is in actual fact a danger that depopulation of that part of Scotland will be intensified by the effect of this proposed legislation, then I think it is a matter to be taken into consideration between now and the Report stage of the Bill.
I am a little alarmed, as one interested in the farming industry, at the rejoinder of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde: "What difference does that make?", when it is pointed out that the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is in charge of both those sections of industry. I was talking to somebody the other day who said: "The salmon fishing industry at any rate makes large profits; or if it does not, it charges high enough prices to the public to be able to get them." But I am bound to say, in honesty to myself, that the agricultural industry is not carried on specifically with the idea of making a loss. I should not like to think by any means that this was going 401 to be regarded as the thin end of the wedge, or to make any attack at all upon the proved benefit of the present position of de-rating of agriculture. Therefore I look at this matter pretty well with an open mind. I ask the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, to read the speeches made, which moved me to my innermost. I thought those speeches were excellently presorted, and I could do with recruits of that calibre on this side of the Committee.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHIt is unusual, I suppose for somebody from this side of the Committee to come to the rescue of the noble Lord who is in charge of this Bill, but I am not entirely convinced by the arguments which have been put forward. This is an economic problem. It is said that if the rateable value of salmon fishings is increased, it will prevent salmon fishing from going on; that men will become unemployed and the industry will diminish. I am under the impression that salmon fishings pay rents to the owners, and if that were to begin to happen, the obvious result would be that the owners, rather than sacrifice their rents completely, would have to reduce the rents; and in the end they would have to reduce them, if this argument is true in its initial stage at all, to a point at which the salmon fishing will be able to continue as an economic proposition. That seems to be the economic outlet of the problem, and, if that is so, then there is no case for the Amendment.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEI hope that the blandishments of the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition will not induce Members to cross the Floor of the House. I want to make abundantly clear what I am holding out. It is that if, on reading the speeches which have been made to-day (and I, too, would join in tendering my compliments to noble Lords and particularly to the noble Viscount who moved the Amendment), I find anything in them which has not been taken into consideration in another place, where, as has been said, this present situation was carried in Committee by four votes, then I will certainly see what can be done on the Report stage. But further than that I cannot go. I know how often this matter has been discussed, and I do not hold out great hopes that there is anything in what 402 the noble Lord has said which has not been taken into consideration already.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSI am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, for bringing up the question about owners reducing their rents. At the moment, it is true that salmon fishery is assessed on the actual rent paid. After 1961 it will not be so assessed, but will be assessed on the hypothetical value of that salmon fishery, and, therefore, may have no connection with the actual rent paid at all. Nor would it necessarily be reduced if the owner reduced his rent.
While thanking the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, for his answer, I should like to take him up on certain points. It is true that, since 1929, it has suited salmon fisheries to be classed as industry; but that is only because if they had not been classed as industry they would have been paying 100 per cent. rates. It is true also that the definition in 1896 of "agricultural land and heritages", upon which the whole trouble is based, did not include salmon fisheries. But if that were so in 1896, does it necessarily have to be so to-day? The situation is entirely different. Further, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, said that it would be a loophole for other industries. Can the noble Lord tell me what other industries would be likely to take advantage of this particular arrangement? What other industries could in fact be classed as agricultural in the same way as this industry? If the noble Lord would tell me I should be very interested to consider the matter, but I cannot think of any.
As far as unemployment and depopulation are concerned, I am certain that the noble Lord is as anxious as anybody to prevent them. But the fact remains that, at present, along the coast of Kincardine and North Angus, which is one of the main salmon fishery areas, there is a very high level of unemployment (higher than anywhere else in Scotland, so far as I know), and stations have already closed down there because of the present rating situation. If rates are put up, it will be impossible for thorn to carry on. I cannot, of course, give the noble Lord any specific examples of stations that will close down, but if the people who run them say they will close down, I cannot but accept the 403 fact. Also, if the noble Lord says that it is a very small amount and, therefore, the industry or the occupation should be able to carry it, he is not taking into account the fact that this is a very small occupation, and it is exactly that
§ The numbers being equal, it was (pursuant to Standing Order No. 49) resolved in the negative: Amendment not agreed to accordingly.
§ Clauses 8 to 11 agreed to.
§ Clause 12 [Extension of maximum period for repayment of sums borrowed for certain purposes]:
§ 3.30 p.m.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDE moved to leave out "as defined in the Act of 1947". The noble Lord said: I think it will be convenient for the House if I take Amendments Nos. 3 to 10 together, as they all relate to the same subject. These Amendments give effect to an undertaking which appears in paragraph 7 of the White Paper. Their effect is, first, to widen the provisions already contained in Clause 12 of the Bill, so as to extend the borrowing period for all buildings provided under Section 74 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1947 instead of buildings provided solely for public meetings and assemblies; and, secondly, to extend to such period, not exceeding sixty years, as may be sanctioned by the Secretary of State the present borrowing periods for crematoria, homes for old people and land which is not already covered by another statutory provision. I
404§ small amount that will break the camel's back. I would beg your Lordships to accept this Amendment.
§ On Question, Whether the Amendment shall be agreed to?
§ Their Lordships divided: Contents, 24; Not-Contents, 24.
403| CONTENTS | ||
| Lothian, M. | Archibald, L. | Moyne, L. |
| Burden, L. | Rea, L. | |
| Addison, V. | Darwen, L. | Silkin, L. |
| Clifden, V. | Forbes, L. | Sinha, L. |
| Colville of Culross [Teller.] | Gisborough, L. | Trefgarne, L. |
| Stansgate, V. | Haden-Guest, L. | Tweedsmuir, L. |
| Stonehaven, V. [Teller.] | Killearn, L. | Waleran, L. |
| Lovat, L. | Wise, L. | |
| Amulree, L. | Milner of Leeds, L. |
| NOT-CONTENTS | ||
| Kilmuir, V. (L. Chancellor.) | Winterton, E. | Douglas of Barloch, Z. |
| Hampton, L. | ||
| Salisbury, M. | Soulbury, V. | Hawke, L. |
| Mancroft, L. | ||
| Albemarle, E. | Barnby, L. | Merrivale, L. |
| Bathurst, E. [Teller.] | Birdwood, L. | Merthyr, L. |
| Craven, E. | Cawley, L. | Pethick-Lawrence, L. |
| Home, E. | Chesham, L. [Teller.] | Rathcavan, L. |
| Selkirk, E. | Clitheroe, L. | Strathclyde, L. |
| Swinton, E. |
§ should make it clear to your Lordships that the Amendments do not mean that in future repayment of loans for these purposes will always be spread over sixty years, but they will enable a period of up to sixty years to be sanctioned by the Secretary of State where that is justified by the probable life of the asset. This is a useful relaxation of a point on which the Scottish statutes are too rigid; the flexibility provided by these Amendments is already available in England and Wales. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 33, leave out "as defined in the Act of 1947".—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEI beg to move the next Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 35, at end insert ("(b) the Cremation Act, 1902.").—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEI beg to move this Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 37, leave out from (" 1947 ") to end of line 39 and insert ("(which relates to the provision of halls, offices and other buildings)").—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
405§ LORD STRATHCLYDEI beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 42, leave out (" or") and insert ("(f) section twenty-one of the National Assistance Act, 1948, or").—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEI beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 8, after second (" years" ") insert ("and in the entry relating to the Cremation Act, 1902, for the words 'Twenty years ' there shall be substituted the words 'Such period not exceeding sixty years as may be sanctioned by the Secretary of State '").—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEI beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 13, leave out ("so far as relating to the provision of buildings for public meetings and assemblies ").—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEI beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§ Page 9, line 21, at end insert—
| " Section twenty-one of the National Assistance Act, 1948. | Such period not exceeding sixty years as may be sanctioned by the Secretary of State."). |
§ —(Lord Strathclyde
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEI beg to move this Amendment.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 9, line 25, at end insert—
("(2) Where a local authority is authorised to borrow money for the purpose of any enactment, any provision (whether in that or another enactment) that any sum so borrowed shall be repaid within a period of fewer than sixty years, or within such period not exceeding fifty-nine or fewer years as the local authority or a Minister may determine, shall be construed as applying only to sums so borrowed for expenditure otherwise than on the acquisition of land; and any sum so borrowed by the local authority for expenditure on the acquisition of land (being a sum to which any such provision as aforesaid would, apart from this subsection, apply) shall be repaid within such period not exceeding sixty years as may be sanctioned by the Secretary of State, or, where the consent of another Minister is required for the borrowing, by that other Minister.
406
(3) In this section 'local authority' and ' Minister ' have the same meanings as in the Act of 1947, and references to the acquisition of land do not include references to the acquisition, with any land, of buildings or other works thereon, being buildings or other works required to make the land fit for the purpose for which it is acquired.").—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDE moved, after Clause 12 to insert the following new clause:
§ " Abolition of certain requirements relating to local government administration
§ 13.—(1) For the purpose of abolishing cerain requirements relating to local government administration and for making provision consequential thereon the enactments specified in the Schedule (Local Government Administration) shall have effect subject to the modifications so specified in relation to them respectively.
§ (2) This section shall come into operation on the sixteenth day of May, nineteen hundred and fifty-nine."
§ The noble Lord said: The purpose of this new clause is to pave the way for the relaxations which are set out in the new Schedule which appears on page 4 of the Marshalled List, Amendment No. 20. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
After Clause 12 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ LORD SILKINI have to apologise for intervening in this debate, but I am doing so at the request of my noble friend Lord Greenhill, who wished to say something on this new clause but is unavoidably unable to be present.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEMay I interrupt the noble Lord? We have not yet reached the new Schedule; that is Amendment No. 20. This is merely an Amendment to pave the way for the new Schedule.
§ LORD SILKINI do not mind speaking on this one or on the other. I thought it might be convenient now, but I will reserve my remarks till later. I think the noble Lord knows roughly what I am going to say. I will do whatever he pleases.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEI think it would be more convenient to leave it to the later Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
407§ 3.39 p.m.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDE moved, after Clause 12, to insert the following new clause:
§ " Amendment of Education (Scotland) Act, 1946, s. 7
§ 14. Subsection (1) of section seven of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1946 (which subsection requires certain functions of education authorities to be exercised in accordance with schemes approved by the Secretary of State) shall have effect as if, in paragraph (a) thereof, after the word ' Act ', there were inserted the words ' other than such voluntary part-time or full-time courses of instruction for persons over school age as the Secretary of State may direct '."
§ The noble Lord said: The purpose of this new clause is to amend subsection (1) (a) of Section 7 of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1946, so as to require an education authority to exercise some, but not all, of the functions described in Section 1 (5) (b) of the 1946 Act in accordance with schemes approved by the Secretary of State. This new clause will give effect to the recommendation of the working party of departmental and local authority representatives that the establishment of certain technical education courses should be subject to the approval of the Secretary of State. Submission of schemes and approval of them is considered desirable to ensure regional and national co-ordination in the provision of technical educational facilities, to avoid overlapping or unnecessary provision and to secure that account is taken of the views of all interested parties before new courses or facilities are provided. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
After Clause 12, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ 3.40 p.m.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDE moved, after Clause 12, to insert the following new clause:
§ " Inspection of minutes of certain authorities
§ 15.—(1) The minutes of—
- (a) the proceedings of a local authority, and
- (b) the proceedings of any committee appointed by a local authority so far as such proceedings relate to any of the authority's functions under the National Health Service (Scotland) Act, 1947, the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act, 1947, or the National Assistance Act, 1948,
§ (2) In this section ' local authority' and ' local government elector ' have the same meanings as in the Act of 1947."
§ The noble Lord said: This Amendment implements the proposals in paragraph 14 of the White Paper. Its effect is to give local government electors a right of access to all minutes of the full council, and to those of any committee so far as dealing with health, planning or welfare. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
After Clause 12 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Remaining clauses agreed to.
§ First to Third Schedules agreed to.
§ Fourth Schedule [Consequential modifications of enactments]:
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEThis Amendment is to correct a printing error. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 22, line 7, after (" provided") insect (" for ").—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEThe purpose of this Amendment is to repeal words in subsection (7) of Section 70 of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1946, which are no longer necessary in view of the Amendments to that section already provided for in the Bill, in the Fourth Schedule, paragraph 6 (3). I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 22, line 9, at end insert.—
("(d) in paragraph (7) the words ' in addition to any sums voted by Parliament for the training of teachers' shall be omitted").—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEThe purpose of this Amendment is to re-define the meaning of the expression "code" used in the Education (Scotland) Act, 1946. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 22, line 31, at end insert—
(" (7) In section one hundred and forty-three, in subsection (1), for the definition of ' code' there shall be substituted the following definition, that is to say—
' "code" means regulations made under subsection (8) of section one of this Act '").—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
409§ LORD STRATHCLYDEThis Amendment is designed to repeal a provision in the Superannuation (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1948, which, with the abolition of the Education (Scotland) Fund, is no longer necessary. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 8, at end insert (" and subsection (8) shall cease to have effect.")—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEIt might be convenient to the Committee if we took Amendments Nos. 18 and 19 together. They are both consequential. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 25, leave out (" (d)") and insert ("(e)").—(Lord Strathclyde.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 26, leave out (" (7) and (8)")and insert (" (8) and (9)").—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Fourth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
§ 3.45 p.m.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDE moved, after tire Fourth Schedule to insert the following new Schedule: