ANTI-SUBMARINE CRAFT CONSTRUCTION (Hansard, 20 November 1957)

THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY
My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (THE EARL OF SELKIRK)
My Lords, I can assure the noble Earl that there is no reduction in the frigate construction programme mentioned in my Explanatory Statement earlier this year. The reference which the noble and gallant Earl makes to the conversion of Second World War destroyers to antisubmarine vessels relates, I think, to a decision taken some three years ago. In 1954 the conversion programme was fixed at thirty-three vessels and these have now been completed.

THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY
My Lords, whilst thanking the noble Earl for his Answer to my Question, I would ask a supplementary question—namely, whether these programmes are to be reconsidered in view of the expression of opinion by Admiral Wright and his British advisers (an Air Marshal and an Admiral) that we are hopelessly deficient in our anti-submarine craft and must have a great deal more. And in considering this matter, would Her Majesty's Government bear in mind the cost in merchant ships and merchant seamen which must eventuate if we do not have sufficient craft, particularly in the early days of a war? These ships will come flooding back to the country from all over the ocean, not in convoy and quite unorganised. I would ask, too, whether in giving this matter their consideration they would remember that it is during the next two years that we want conventional weapons. What they have got in the 406 starry-eyed future does not matter now; those vessels are not ready. We are told that they are coming off the drawing board nicely. I hope that Her Majesty's Government will bear in mind that it is conventional weapons in the air and on the sea that will keep down the submarines in the early weeks of a war.

§ THE EARL OF SELKIRK
My Lords, I think I can assure the noble Earl that what he has said is being borne carefully in mind. I hope that in this regard the noble Earl will remember particularly what the Prime Minister has recently said in regard to close association with the United States of America. In this matter we have to work closely with the United States Navy, and that is what we are doing now. I assure the noble Earl that at the present time we are not only working in close association with them but seeing that all that we are doing is in line with the requirements of the combined N.A.T.O. Forces.

§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH
My Lords, I am glad to know that we are going to work so closely with the United States. We did not do so during the Suez incident. I hope that that position is perhaps going to be put right. But people in all Parties, whatever they may say or do in regard to the particular issue of disarmament, are always concerned with this question. Would the noble Earl the First Lord tell us, first, the total number of frigates and especially converted destroyers that will be available when the programmes he refers to are completed? Secondly, will be say whether this number of antisubmarine ships is considered by the Admiralty to be adequate to meet the task into which at any time they may be projected?

§ THE EARL OF SELKIRK
My Lords, I appreciate what the noble Viscount has said. We are concerned with this problem. I think, however, that if the noble Viscount reflects on the autumn exercises—"Strike Back" and others which have taken place—he will appreciate that the association between the Royal Navy and the United States Navy, and indeed the other navies of N.A.T.O., is very close. I regret I cannot give him the complete picture of frigates available for these tasks; but, strictly speaking, the number of Royal Naval frigates is 407 irrelevant to this issue. What we want to look at is the total North Atlantic Treaty Organisation force available for the purpose. That, I think, is the figure which is material. All I can say is that the number of forces available is formidable. I do not for one moment want to say that the possible forces opposed to them are not also formidable, but I do not want the noble Viscount to think that the forces which we in the Western association can mobilise are totally insignificant to the task which opposes them. They are not. They have a big task, but I think they can meet what would be required.

§ LORD WINSTER
My Lords, may I ask whether the noble Earl's attention has been drawn to the recent statement by the Minister of Defence, that the most useful part for the Royal Navy to play in N.A.T.O. was to concentrate on antisubmarine operations? Is it not the fact that Admiral Sir John Eccles has said in public: I cannot carry out my task without more forces. To enter a war with the forces I have would be running a very, very grave risk."? The American Admiral Jerauld Wright, speaking on the subject of co-operation between America and Britain in this respect, has endorsed what Admiral Sir John Eccles has said, to the effect that the combined forces are insignificant to the task of meeting the Russian submarine threat. What step is being taken to meet the situation when an Admiral is given a duty but is not given the tools with which to carry out the duty assigned to him?

§ THE EARL OF SELKIRK
My Lords, I am quite aware that the Minister of Defence has recently spoken on the importance of concentrating upon antisubmarine duties. I entirely agree with that concept, and I think the noble Lord himself agrees with it. It is of great importance. He has also referred to the remarks made by the Supreme Commander, Atlantic, in regard to the forces available. Of course we should like more forces; but the forces in the Western world, just as here, depend on the economic resources available. There is no question about that. The remarks the Supreme Commander, Atlantic, has made are, of course, being noted by all countries; it is not simply a matter for this 408 country. I should like to assure the noble Lord that we are fully aware of the significance of this point, but it is not simply for us to act; it is for all the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation countries to act.

LORD TEYNHAM
Arising out of the reply of the noble Earl, may I ask whether he is aware that the shortage of anti-submarine vessels was confirmed by Admiral Wright at the recent Parliamentary N.A.T.O. Conference in Paris, of which I had the honour to be a member? And does the noble Earl not think we are running a great risk by decreasing our escort and anti-submarine forces?

§ THE EARL OF SELKIRK
My Lords, I entirely agree that we are not living in a world which is devoid of risk at the present time. It is futile to think we can live in this world without a considerable measure of risk. What we must do is to measure what our economic strength can do against that risk. That is the problem the Government have to face, and we are facing it. I know quite well what Admiral Wright said at the N.A.T.O. Conference, and it is of great importance: the United States was glad to help other members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation in the development of modern techniques. That was a statement which we noted and it is of great importance.

§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH
My Lords. I do not propose to ask another question, except this. We have asked for a day to be devoted by this House to discussion of the defence position, and this matter can be borne in mind then, if that debate is expedited to some extent. But the people whom I meet generally are concerned about the situation, the unsatisfactory recruiting position and the apparent lack of agreement in the Government itself as to what should be done to meet the position. I think it would be futile to continue asking questions now, but I should like to give notice that all these matters must be dealt with fairly early in debate if we are to be satisfied in the matter.

§ THE EARL OF SELKIRK
My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Viscount. A debate will provide a much more profitable way to discuss a subject of great complexity in every possible way, 409 and I have no doubt that through the usual channels what he has suggested can be arranged.