§ 4.5 p.m.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF GOSFORD)My Lords, may I ask your Lordships' permission to intervene, to make a statement which is being made by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary in another place? The statement is as follows:
§ Discussions in the China Committee on controls on trade with China have taken place over the last three weeks. In the light of these discussions Her Majesty's Government have now considered their position. We intend to continue our established policy of cooperating with our friends and allies in a system of controls on trade with both the Soviet bloc and China in the mutual security interest. As regards the detailed scope of the United Kingdom controls on trade with China, however, we have informed our associates that in future we shall adopt the same lists for China and the Soviet bloc. This decision will mean no change as regards items which are embargoed for both the Soviet bloc and China. But certain items now embargoed for China only will either be transferred to the quantitative control list or to the watch list or completely freed. The necessary detailed arrangements will need to be discussed in the China Committee. The Export of Goods Control Order will be amended accordingly as soon as that can be done. In the meantime, licences will be granted on request for all items now embargoed for China but not subject to export licensing to the Soviet bloc. For items subject to quantitative control for export to the Soviet bloc it will not be possible to grant licences until discussions have been held in Paris about the size of quotas for China. Exporters interested in any items which are not embargoed to the Soviet bloc should communicate with the Export Licensing Branch of the Board of Trade.
146§ 4.7 p.m.
§ THE EARL OF LUCANMy Lords, the statement that we have just heard will cause great pleasure, not only to your Lordships here but far outside this House, and not least, I should say, to the great mass of British exporters and industrialists who are interested in export. In passing, I think one may say that your Lordships will probably consider it a pity that the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, is not in his place, because no one has been more persistent in fighting this cause than he has over many years. I think we can say that the decision will be welcomed in China. I was fortunate enough to be in China for a short time last year, and there was no doubt in the minds of visitors that it was the genuine desire of the Government and people of China to increase trade with Great Britain. In fact, this decision will mean that China will become less closely attached to the Soviet Union and the Communist bloc of countries, because hitherto they had been forced to rely almost entirely on those countries for technical help.
We must not think that this change is going to open the door to trade similar to that which we carried on with China in the old days. The days of exporting cotton piece goods are over—the Chinese make their own. But what they do want is machine tools, precision instruments and capital goods such as complete factories. I am quite sure our exporters will find a ready market for those. I would only ask the noble Earl whether we can take it that the effect of the new decision is that China and Russia will now be on an equality as regards trade with this country; and, secondly, would he say a little more about the quantitative control list? Perhaps he could give us a few examples of articles that are on that list.
§ 4.9 p.m.
§ LORD TREFGARNEMy Lords, may I intervene to ask the noble Earl if he has any information about whether any other Government is associated with Her Majesty's Government in this departure from the practice hitherto followed?
LORD REAMy Lords, before the noble Earl replies, may I say that it has been puzzling to many of us why articles which were eligible to go to Russia 147 should not be eligible to go to China; therefore, we congratulate and, at the same time, commiserate with Her Majesty's Government at this particular moment. We commiserate with them for having had to put off this moment for such a very long time. And particularly we commiserate with the noble Marquess in the last Ministry who "stood on the burning deck" for so long, rejecting the advances of my noble friend, Lord Elibank. On a superficial consultation of Hansard, it seems that the noble Viscount has put the same question, if not in exactly the same words, no fewer than sixty-seven times during the last two or three years; and I think your Lordships will be glad on his behalf, if not for wider reasons, that the matter has come to such a successful conclusion.
THE EARL OF GOSFORDMy Lords, in answer to the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, I would merely reiterate that the system of controls and the lists are now identical. I cannot say that the trade is the same; that is a rather different question. But the same items are on both lists. As regards the noble Earl's question about the quantitative control list, I would say that the items on it are such things as heavy machine tools, certain types of electric generating equipment and turbines, types of merchant vessels, types of ball-bearings and certain grades of aluminium and nickel steel. I am afraid I am not in a position to give an answer to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne. If he likes to contact me at a later date I may be able to satisfy him. I, too, should like to pay a tribute to the persistence of the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, which has given me many opportunities to rise to my feet. Along with other noble Lords, I am extremely sorry that he is not here to-day to hear this satisfactory result, though I did my best to contact him.