§ 3.11 p.m.
§ Amendments reported (according to Order).
§ Clause 9:
§ Special provisions with respect to the sale of certain refreshments for off-consumption and of mineral waters, sweets, etc.
§
9.—(1) Notwithstanding anything in section one of this Act a shop which is registered under this section may—
(a) on any weekday, be open at any time
(ii) for the sale of mineral waters or other non-intoxicating drinks, sweets, chocolates or other sugar confectionery, ice cream (with or without edible containers), tobacco or smokers' requisites;
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I beg to move the first Amendment standing in my name. It is so nearly a drafting Amendment that I will not detain your Lordships on it, unless there is any particular point which your Lordships desire to discuss. It is designed to avoid an anomaly. Apparently, under the Bill as drafted, the sale of a cornet would be all right but that of a wafer would not.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 14, after (" without ") insert (" wafers or ")—(Viscount Hailsham.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 10 [Restriction on carrying on, on weekdays, of retail trade or business otherwise than in shops]:
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, this Amendmend is consequential on the last. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 4, after (" without ") insert (" wafers or ").—(Viscount Hailsham.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 16 [Sunday closing of shops]:
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, this is a minor drafting Amendment to correct an inadvertent omission from the words which were inserted in the Bill as a result of an Amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Derwent during the second Committee stage. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 7, after (" (ii) ") insert (" for ").—(Viscount Hailsham.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, this Amendment also is consequential. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 9, after (" without ") insert (" wafers or ").—(Viscount Hailsham.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 17 [Exception for sale of food on Sundays at registered food shops]:
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, this Amendment to leave out Clause 17 carries out an undertaking I gave to my noble friend Lord Derwent. In the second Committee stage he argued that this clause was of very little use as a result of the changes in the law which were being effected. I accepted the Amendment in principle but persuaded 857 my noble friend to withdraw it so that consideration should be given to the consequential Amendments which would be necessitated by the deletion of the clause. Those consequential Amendments now appear in my name and will be moved in due course. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 17.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I do not want to debate this matter—it has been gone over before. I would only say that the withdrawal of this clause which was making specific limitations on this class of Sunday trading and the Amendments which have been put in place of it have the net result of an overall increase in Sunday trading. From that point of view, I do not agree with it.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 18 [Power of local authority, in sea-fishing centres and holiday resorts, to authorise Sunday opening for certain purposes]:
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, this Amendment and the following three Amendments are all drafting and consequential on the last Amendment. I beg to move Amendment No. 6.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 24, leave out (" the foregoing provisions of this Part ") and insert (" section sixteen ").—(Viscount Hailsham.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 7.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 33, leave out (" the foregoing provisions of this Part ") and insert (" section sixteen ").—(Viscount Hailsham.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 8.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 42, leave out (" the foregoing provisions of this Part ") and insert (" section sixteen ").—(Viscount Hailsham.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 9.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 13, leave out lines 5 to 10 and insert (" means any article used as food or drink
858
for human consumption, other than drugs or water, and includes—
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 19 [Restriction on carrying on, on Sunday, of retail trade or business otherwise than in shops]:
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, Amendment No. 10 is also consequential on the omission of Clause 17. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 25, leave out (" section seventeen of this Act or ").—(Viscount Hailsham.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, this Amendment is consequential on the Amendment to Clause 9. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 47, after (" without ") insert (" wafers or ").—(Viscount Hailsham.)
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, this is consequential on the Amendment to omit Clause 17. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 2, leave out (" subsection (9) of section seventeen of this Act ") and insert (" subsection (4) of the last foregoing section ").—(Viscount Hailsham.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 29 [Provisions to have effect in lieu of s. 10 in case of persons registered under Part III]:
VISCOUNT HATLSHAMMy Lords, this Amendment is consequential on the Amendment to Clause 9. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 35, after (" without ") insert (" wafers or ").—(Viscount Hailsham.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 57 [False statements, etc.]:
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, this Amendment is also drafting and consequential on the omission of Clause 17. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 43, line 25, leave out (" seventeen ").—(Viscount Hailsham.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
859§ Clause 72 [Provisions relating to Scotland]:
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (LORD STRATHCLYDE)My Lords, this Amendment is the Scottish equivalent of the Amendments to be moved to paragraph 9 of the Second Schedule. Those are Amendments Nos. 20 and 21 on the Marshalled List which are, naturally, in English terms. The Amendment is the best translation that we can devise of either of these two Amendments, and it should have much the same effect. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 51, line 17, at end insert—
(" (h) in paragraph 9 of the Second Schedule for sub-paragraph (c) there shall be substituted the following sub-paragraph—
' (c) at any park, garden or recreation ground for the regulation of which by-laws may be made under any enactment by a county, town or district council; ' ").—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELMy Lords, I should like to make just this comment: lucky Scotland! I think the noble Lord was going rather far when he said it was the equivalent of the Amendments that will be moved in a moment by the noble Viscount as regards England and Wales. I will reserve my reasons for making that statement until the noble Viscount's Amendment is moved.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEMy Lords, I prefaced my remarks by saying it was the Scottish equivalent.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELI am delighted that this is being done for Scotland.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Second Schedule:
§ TRANSACTIONS PERMISSIBLE IN GREAT BRITAIN AT ANY TIME ON WEEKDAYS AND IN ENGLAND AND WALES AT ANY TIME ON SUNDAYS
§
1. The sale—
(b) in a vessel, railway train, omnibus or aircraft, for consumption therein;
of meals (including tobacco supplied therewith for immediate consumption) or refreshments, mineral waters or other non-intoxicating drinks, sweets, chocolates or other sugar confectionery or ice-cream (with or without wafers or edible containers).
§
9. The sale of guide-books, reproductions of works or art, picture postcards, photographs, photographic films or photographic plates or souvenirs—
(a) at a museum or art gallery; or
§ 3.20 p.m.
§ LORD GIFFORD moved, in paragraph 1 (b), after "omnibus" to insert "coach". The noble Lord said: My Lords, on a previous stage of the Bill I moved a somewhat similar Amendment, to substitute the words "public service vehicle" for "omnibus". This created rather a light-hearted debate on the question whether one could eat a sandwich in a trolley-bus or a tramcar, but not in an omnibus. I am now leaving out the sandwich, the trolley-bus and the tramcar, but I feel that this and the two following Amendments make for clarity by including "coach" after "omnibus". That, I think, is really the intention of the Bill. I beg to move the first Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 52, line 27, after ("omnibus") insert (",coach").—(Lord Gifford.)
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I am advised that it is proper for me to accept this Amendment, and I am happy to do so.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 52, line 29, after (" omnibus ") insert (" or coach ").—(Lord Gifford.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD GIFFORDMy Lords, this, too, is consequential. I am most grateful to the noble Viscount for accepting three coaches, as well as three omnibuses. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 52, line 30, after (" omnibus ") insert (", coach ").—(Lord Gifford.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
LORD GIFFORD moved, after paragraph 7 to insert:
8. The sale at a railway station, omnibus or coach station or airport, of timetables;
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I think this is a comparatively simple Amendment upon which I need not dilate at
861
any great length. Under the Bill, the sale of theatre programmes and the like is allowed, and it is felt that the sale of timetables ought to be permitted at any time. That is the purpose of this Amendment. I hope that the noble Viscount will be good enough to accept it. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 53, line 15, at end insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Gifford.)
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I understood that my noble friend had transferred this Amendment to the Second Schedule and was going to move it there. If he does so I will accept it. Here, I cannot.
LORD GIFFORDMy Lords, I beg to state that I have already transferred this Amendment to the Second Schedule. We are now on the Second Schedule.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMAre we? Then I am happy to accept the Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM moved, in paragraph 9, after sub-paragraph (b) to insert:
(c) at an open space (within the meaning of the Open Spaces Act, 1906) for the regulation of which by-laws may be made under section fifteen of that Act; or
§ The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment is designed to meet the wishes of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. I am sorry to learn from his intervention on Lord Strathclyde's Amendment, that he is looking this particular gift horse in the mouth. His desire was to allow at any time the sale of guide books, reproductions and similar articles in public parks and gardens under the control of local authorities. He moved an Amendment about this subject during the second Committee stage, but withdrew it on my undertaking to consider achieving the desired effect in different words. My information is that the Government's Amendment is the simplest way of getting round the drafting difficulty into which both he and I fell on the former occasion.
§ This difficulty was caused by the reference in terms to a "local authority", which term in this Bill has a limited meaning, owing to the provisions of Clause 47. The effect of the Amendment which I am now moving is that the sales 862 in question will be allowed at any time in any open space in or over which a local authority have acquired any estate interest or control under the Open Spaces Act, 1906. For the purpose of that Act a local authority means the council of any county, of any municipal or metropolitan borough or of any district; the Common Council of the City of London, or any parish council invested with the powers of the 1906 Act. My information is that this meets the noble Earl's point. I am afraid that in the time available we have not had full consultation, either with the noble Earl or with some of the local authorities who have been in touch with him; but if he or anyone else feels that the terms of this Amendment do not for any reason meet the case, the Government will be glad to consider anything that might be said, either publicly or privately, to them about it. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 53, line 31, at end insert the said subparagraph.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELMy Lords, I am happy to think that this is a quarrel about words, because such quarrels usually end in friendship. But I should like to explain to the noble Viscount why his effort to meet the requirements, at any rate of London, has not met with success. It is a matter of drafting, but he, as a lawyer, will appreciate that the only local authorities who can take advantage of this provision are those who have acquired a control or other interest in the parks with which we are dealing, which are open spaces under the Open Spaces Act, 1906. Unfortunately, in London a large number of the most important parks were not acquired under that Act. To give the noble Viscount examples which will obviously, I think, strike him as important examples—Hampstead Health, Finsbury Park and Battersea Park, and Victoria Park in the East of London, were all acquired under a London Act, and therefore would not be covered by the noble Viscount's Amendment, and the London County Council would not be able to sell guide books on Sundays or after closing hours on weekdays.
I shall be perfectly content if the noble Viscount would be good enough to give me an undertaking that his draftsmen, together perhaps with the officials of the 863 London County Council on the legal side, would consult in order to agree about a suitable formula which could be introduced as a Government Amendment when this Bill goes to another place. We shall not have another opportunity of amending the Bill here because the Third Reading will be moved immediately after this stage of the Bill, so that any undertaking the noble Viscount may be good enough to give would have to apply to the Government's handling of the Bill in another place. We often get undertakings given by the Government in another place which are honoured here. I am sure there is no objection to the same thing happening in reverse. I shall be greatly obliged if the noble Viscount could answer me on this Amendment; it would save a great deal of trouble in regard to my Amendment which follows his.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I think I can comply with the noble Earl's very reasonably phrased request. His own Amendment would not have done because that would not have covered the case of all local authorities other than the London County Council, for various reasons, into which, in view of the undertaking I am going to give, I need not go, and also because the term "open space" in the Amendment would have been too wide. But I think that the noble Earl and I are at one as to the object we wish to achieve, and I agree with him that the best way of achieving that object is for the draftsmen of the London County Council and of my right honourable friend to meet in solemn conclave and resolve their differences. If he will take that as an undertaking, we will introduce what I hope will be an agreed Amendment in another place at a later stage. I hope that the noble Earl will be satisfied with that undertaking.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL had given notice of an Amendment to add to paragraph 9:
or
(e) at any open space under the control of an authority which is a local authority for the purposes of the Local Government Act, 1933, or the London Government Act, 1939.
§ The noble Earl said: My Lords, I merely take advantage of the procedure of the House, which allows me to speak on my Amendment, to say 864 that I accept the noble and learned Viscount's offer with gratitude. On that understanding I will not move the Amendment that has been placed on the Order Paper in my name.
§ Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been dispensed with (pursuant to Resolution):
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords we now come to the Third Reading of this Bill. I understand that it will be for the convenience of the House if I move it formally. If noble Lords wish to raise any point I can, by leave of the House, answer their questions. I therefore formally beg to move that the Bill be read a third time.
§ Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
§ 3.32 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, before speaking to this Third Reading I should like to say that the House, and especially the Opposition, are grateful to the noble and learned Viscount for the majority of the efforts he has made upon this Bill. We have not always been satisfied, for he has not given us what we wanted; but, by and large, he has resisted a great many attempts to make this Bill much worse even than it is at the present time. From that point of view we are grateful to him, as we are grateful for his unfailing courtesy during the debates.
The Bill itself has been long overdue. We are now glad that it is passing in some form, and we hope that it will be amended to better purpose when it reaches another place. It is now ten years since the Gowers Committee reported, and when the Bill came to us it was substantially in accordance with the recommendations of that Committee. Though it is no longer as near to their recommendations as some of us would desire, the noble and learned Viscount, on the whole, seems satisfied that he has not departed very far from it. There is, however, considerable concern in certain parts of the country, particularly where Sunday closing is looked at with very great care, and among the Churches, that there is in this legislation a tendency to extend, rather than to restrict, general Sunday trading. I hope that when this Bill comes to be considered in another 865 place this matter may be taken up more adequately, perhaps, than it has been in this House.
It is particularly regrettable to me that public opinion on the question of Sunday trading, especially in Scotland, has not been better organised—especially from the Churches. I have never been able to find serious attention given to the question at all, except by the Presbytery at Glasgow, who seem to be very anxious for the Bill to be passed for England and Wales, as being generally a good thing, while not wanting it applied to Scotland. It is in Scotland most of all that legislation is required, for Sunday trading is undoubtedly increasing there, particularly on housing estates. I hope that when this Bill gets to another place some attention will be given to that point.
We have had our debates and we on this side have substantially lost on the Amendments we have moved, especially those to Clause 1. We have not, therefore, been able to obtain the assent of the House to the very reasonable amendment of trading hours proposed, I believe, by the trade unions, strongly supported by the whole of the co-operative societies in this country, and by certain sections of organised distributive traders who did not want any general regulation of shops' opening hours which went much beyond that which, in practice, applies to the majority of shops to-day. It is a fact that more than 60 per cent. of retail shops in this country, covering all classes of trade, will continue their existing practice of opening for shorter hours than are now laid down in this Bill. Considering that the Gowers Committee Report was ten years old it would have been far better, in securing the proper effect all the way round, if a progressive Government had brought the matter up to date and brought all these things into line.
I have no intention of speaking at any great length and the only other point of substance is what I might call the "retreat" of Her Majesty's Government, though I do not know whether that is quite the right word. I will put it the other way round and speak of the acquiesence of Her Majesty's Government in reducing the powers of local authorities who, under war-time legislation, and that which has continued in practice since, if their view was confirmed by the majority of local traders, have been able, by local order, to prescribe 866 shorter local opening hours than those laid down in the Statute. This Bill is a severe blow to local option of that kind, and I believe that it will rightly be resented by local government associations. I hope that this matter too, will receive some attention when the Bill goes to another place.
Though I am certainly not claiming to speak on this point for a mass Party, I believe that the extensions which have been granted, through the lips and actions of the noble and learned Viscount, with regard to still later hours of opening for tobacco and confectionery sales are not at present justified. I had thought that the noble Lord, Lord Mackintosh of Halifax, would be in his place to-day, but unfortunately he is not here. I must say that perhaps the best evidence of the flourishing state of the sugar confectionery industry is the last balance sheet issued by John Mackintosh & Sons, which showed a wonderful increase of dividends. There is, therefore, very good evidence of how unnecessary it is to keep shops open longer in order to get better results on sugar confectionery. I hope that some attention will be given to that matter also in another place.
The last point to which I want to call special attention, and which I hope will receive consideration in another place, is the matter on which, as the noble and learned Viscount will remember, we failed to get our point on the Second Schedule, with regard to the widening of powers for chemists to sell on Sundays all kinds of articles. We believe that this is probably likely to interfere with the present chemists' rota under the National Health Service. I hope that when this legislation goes through our fear may, in practice, be found to be wrong. But there should be general attention paid in another place to the fact that the widening of the powers of chemists to open for the sale of a number of articles, rather than restricting them to the making-up of prescriptions, appears to be a very retrograde step and one to which the other place might well give attention. In conclusion I would only say that while I point these criticisms I am glad that we are to have a piece of clearing-up legislation which, imperfect as we think it is, is in some parts at least much nearer to the practice that ought to obtain rather than that which would have obtained had 867 war-time and post-war arrangements been completely wiped out, with a general return to the conditions of the original Shops Act. I think that would have been a disaster; this Bill has considerably reduced the possibility of that disaster.
§ 3.40 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, perhaps I might add one or two points, quite shortly. I should like to thank the noble Viscount, in particular, for his kind references to myself. As I believe I told the House on the occasion of the first Committee stage, it is the first experience I have had in either House of Parliament of piloting legislation through a House—at any rate on behalf of the Government. For me, though it has been a somewhat lengthy experience it has also been a very pleasant one, owing to the kindness with which I have been treated.
I do not think that the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, is right in what he says as to the kind of reception that this Bill has had in the country. All through the course of the Bill the pressure has not been to make it more rigorous, as the noble Viscount has desired and as, indeed, certain organised bodies of opinion have also desired, but to liberalise or to reject it altogether as being restrictive in effect. Personally, I would not plead guilty to either set of criticisms—either that of the noble Viscount or those of the Press, which I thought were singularly ungenerous and regardless of the actual provisions of the Bill, especially as they have emerged from Committee.
I think it should be realised that anyone who now criticises the Bill criticises a Bill which enlarges the power of holiday resorts to grant later shopping hours, which gives shopkeepers a choice of two days for early closing which tidies up an enormous amount of confusion and inconsistency in the present law relating to early closing and Bank Holidays, and which clarifies the law relating to Sunday trading. In passing, I must say that those who advise me inform me that the noble Viscount is not right in saying that the effect of the Bill is to enlarge the scope of Sunday trading; there are entries on both sides of the ledger and it is difficult to say in advance what the net effect will be. Furthermore, this is a Bill which brings up to date and renders 868 workable provisions of the Shops Act relating to employment. I cannot but feel that such a measure is both liberalising and advantageous to those for whom it is designed.
I think that the noble Viscount, though he has levelled a certain number of criticisms at us for a variety of reasons, on the whole accepts the measure. I would not accept the noble Viscount's view that local authorities have anything to complain of regarding the removal of local option. Their present option is to curtail the hours from 8 to 7, and as the universal hour under the Bill is 7 that option becomes unnecessary. For these reasons I hope that the House will give the Bill a Third Reading.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHThe option is not unnecessary, because the existing practice in the majority of cases is to have the closing hour at 6 with one night at 7.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMI was only saying that the noble Viscount's complaint was that we were taking away the local option to reduce the hour to 7. As the hour is now universally to be 7, local option to reduce the hour to 7 is no longer necessary.
§ On Question, Bill read 3a; Amendments (privilege) made. Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.