§ GOODS WHOSE SALE IS PERMISSIBLE UNTIL LATER HOUR OR, IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES, WITHOUT LIMIT OF TIME
§ 3. Mineral waters and other non-intoxicating drinks.
§ 4. Sweets, chocolates and other sugar confectionery.
§ 5. Ice-cream (with or without wafers or edible containers).
§ 6. Milk and cream, not including tinned or dried milk or cream, but including clotted cream whether sold in tins or otherwise.
§ 7. Tobacco and smokers' requisites.
§ 8. Newspapers, periodicals, magazines, guidebooks, picture postcards and photographs.
§ 9. Bread.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDE moved to add to paragraph 9: "and flour confectionery." The noble Lord said: Under the Bill a shop can stay open on the early closing day for the sale of bread, but flour confectionery cannot be sold unless the shop is registered under Clause 11. Your Lordships will remember that this is a matter on which we had considerable discussion on a previous occasion. In view of the representations then made on both sides of the Committee my right honourable friend has decided that flour confectionery should be added to the First Schedule. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 54, line 20, at end insert ("and flour confectionery").—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHI cannot allow this concession to go without some word of thanks. I am sure that the Government are pleased that the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, can now eat his currant bun, but I suspect that the real reason why the Government gave way and put up the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, to admit their failure is that the pressure of Scotland was too much, because under the Bill they could not even have bought a bap.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMOr a bannock.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEThis is an Amendment which we have partly discussed already during to-day's Sitting. It 408 was one moved by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, on a previous occasion, and in the light of what the noble Lord then said my right honourable friend has given further consideration to the matter, with the result that this Amendment is now on the Order Paper. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 54, line 20, at end insert—
("10. Mechanically propelled vehicles, caravans and trailers.").—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHI should like to thank the noble Lord, in spite of the fact that earlier this evening he thought that I was looking his gift horse in the mouth. I am grateful to the noble Lord because it will mean that a number of foolish anomalies will now be removed and service can now be given to the vehicle-using public at times when they require such service.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ 9.13 p.m.
§
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved to add to Part II:
10. Flowers.
11. Fresh fruit and fresh vegetables (including mushrooms and other edible fungi).
§
The noble Lord said: I hope that I am right in saying that these items have been left out of the Schedule by mistake. From a long list of goods, whose sale is permissible until a late hour, in certain circumstances, flowers, fresh fruit and fresh vegetables are omitted. Yet in the Third Schedule, in the list of goods whose sale is permissible in England and Wales on Sunday until 7 p.m., or other time fixed by local authority are
Flowers.
Fresh, frozen or dried fruit and fresh, frozen or dried vegetables (including mushrooms and other edible fungi).
I conclude that flowers and fresh fruit and vegetables were included in the Third Schedule because they are perishable, and that it was convenient for many people to purchase them for the purpose of taking them to hospitals and places of that kind. My Amendment seeks to put them back into the First Schedule, from which they seem to have been omitted.
§ Surely they are just as perishable on the half-day as they are on the Sunday, and if there is need for flowers and fresh fruit and vegetables to be purchased out 409 of hours on Sunday, the need is equally there on weekdays. I see no reason why they are left out. It is a small matter, but I hope that for the convenience of the public, of those who have to visit hospitals or have the unfortunate duty of visiting cemeteries, it will be possible to purchase cut flowers on weekdays in the same way as it is on Sundays. I hope that the noble Viscount will reinsert these items. I have tried to help him by omitting from my original Amendment the dried produce, which I cannot say perishes. But the others I can say perish. I hope the noble Viscount will either accept this Amendment, or duplicate in the First Schedule the provisions of the Third Schedule. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 54, line 20 at end insert the said paragraphs.—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEAs the noble Lord has said, in this Amendment he seeks to exclude frozen and dried fruit and vegetables. I have no doubt that his intention is to confine the exemption mainly to florists' and greengrocers' shops, but there are some grocers and mixed shops that sell fresh fruit and vegetables. Again here, as my noble and learned friend has done, I have to thank the noble Lord for the trouble to which he has gone to try to find a compromise. Unfortunately, as the Government see it, the Amendment is open to the serious objection that it creates an anomaly; that is, that on the early closing day greengrocers would then he allowed to sell some of their goods but not others, such as boxes of dates and frozen fruit, which they commonly sell. This is just the kind of anomaly the Government are anxious to avoid, so far as possible. Perhaps I can say this to the noble Lord: that we do realise that there may be a problem, and we are continuing to apply our minds to it, in the light of what the noble Lord has just said.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHI am grateful to the noble Lord for saying that. But when he speaks of an anomaly, would he not grant me that the anomaly is there on the Sunday, when precisely the same thing can happen? Flowers and fresh fruit may be sold by greengrocers and by other establishments on Sunday, but the same establishments are not permitted to sell those goods on an early closing day. So when the noble Lord 410 talks about anomalies, it is he who is creating them, and not I. I am trying to relieve him of the anomaly he has created by making one law for the after-hour opening on Sunday, and he will not concede the same law for the after-hour opening on the weekday. However, the dawn of enlightenment is breaking. Let me be satisfied with that; and between now and the passage of this Bill through Parliament I expect to see provision for fruit, flowers and fresh vegetables to be sold on Sundays and on weekdays under precisely the same conditions. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
§ Second Schedule [Transactions permissible in Great Britain at any Time on Weekdays and in England and Wales at any Time on Sundays]:
§ 9. The sale of guide-books, reproductions of works of art, picture postcards, photographs, photographic films or photographic plates or souvenirs—
- (a) at a museum or art gallery; or
- (b) at a place of natural beauty or historic interest, any zoological, botanical or horticultural gardens, or an aquarium, to the extent that the local authority within whose area the place, gardens or aquarium is or are situate certify that the sale of the things aforesaid is desirable in the interests of the public; or
- (c) on a vessel, while it is engaged in carrying passengers; or
- (d) at the Festival Pleasure Gardens as defined by the Festival Pleasure Gardens Act, 1952.
§
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL moved to add to paragraph 9:
or (e) at any garden or park under the control of a public authority.
§ The noble Earl said. The object of this Amendment is to limit the scope of an Amendment which I moved during the Committee stage of the Bill, as I think the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Hailsham, will remember. My earlier Amendment aimed at excluding from the Sunday trading restrictions open spaces as well as parks and gardens owned by local authorities, and this Amendment limits the exclusion to parks and gardens. I should like to illustrate my case by pointing out what would happen in London if the Bill were passed without this Amendment. Your Lordships will 411 remember that the Bill repeals the provisions in the Shops Act, 1950, which allow the sale on Sundays of guide books, and so on, in parks and gardens if they are run by local authorities.
§ I have asked the London County Council to give me some figures about the number of these guide-books which the public like to buy in order to get greater enjoyment from going about the London parks and gardens. Last summer, between May and August, 23,400 copies of guide-books relating to the London County Council's parks and gardens were sold. Of course, there are no figures for the number of these guide-books sold on Sundays, but as people have more time for going out at week-ends it is to be assumed that a large number were in fact sold on Sundays. It seems ridiculous that this Bill should prohibit the public from doing something which they have been accustomed and authorised to do in the last seven years since the Shops Act, 1950, was passed.
§ Moreover, pursuing the example of London as the largest local authority concerned, I would point out that the London County Council have been selling descriptive leaflets about places of great interest, such as Holland House, which was acquired after the war, and Marble Hill House, which has been in the hands of the London County Council for a much longer time and is, as your Lordships will remember, a most interesting 18th century house. It is obviously much more agreeable for visitors to be able to have a history and an explanation of the whole background of the historic places they visit in London. Unless the Government can give a convincing argument for putting an end to this practice it seems unjust to end it. It is undesirable that the public should be deprived of the extra pleasure that a guide-book or catalogue to these places can give them.
§ This Amendment goes rather farther than the existing practice, in that it would allow the sale of guide-books and catalogues during the week after the hours at which shops have to close. In the summer months people like to go out into the gardens, such as Battersea Park or Victoria Park, and enjoy the fresh air in the evening until quite late. They often sit around listening to bands and enjoying the music. It seems ridiculous that after a certain hour when shops close they 412 should not be able to buy a guide-book in the particular garden they happen to be enjoying. I hope that the Government will consider this point, which applies, of course, to all local authorities but which I am illustrating by reference to London. They will otherwise be depriving the public of a special satisfaction which they get at the present time. Indeed, unless there is some very convincing argument for prohibiting the sale of guide-books to parks and gardens in London and other large towns, it will be difficult to justify the omission of a provision of this kind from this Schedule of the Bill. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 55, line 34, at end insert ("or (e) at any garden or park under the control of a public authority ").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMI will, indeed, agree on behalf of the Government to consider this Amendment. I have been much impressed by what the noble Earl has said, and I will ask him on that assurance to withdraw the present Amendment. It arises, as he said, out of a previous Amendment with the same object which he moved on the Committee stage. I then took what was, in substance, a drafting objection. Probably he had the same object in view, but I pointed out that his Amendment was too widely drawn, because it would cover a number of open spaces where it was undesirable to have opening outside closing hours.
The only thing which will not do in the present Amendment is that the words "public authority" are too widely drawn, because there are many authorities that come within that definition. Indeed, there is some doubt as to what authorities come within the definition, strange as it may seem. The words "local authority", which are the obvious alteration, have a special meaning in this Bill by virtue of Clause 49, which has to be read with this particular provision. If, therefore, the noble Earl will take it that his points will be carefully considered—and so far as I am concerned I confess frankly that he has made his case, although that last observation is a personal one—and will not press his Amendment, I will assure him that it will be so considered.
§ 9.26 p.m.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELI am much obliged for the noble Viscount's assurance that he accepts the principle of my 413 Amendment, because I am certain that he will be much more ingenious in drafting an Amendment than I could be. I appreciate his objections to the drafting of the present Amendment. I hope he will be willing to ask his advisers to consult the local authorities between now and the next stage of the Bill. They may between them be able to work out a satisfactory formula. I am certain that it will be much appreciated by the general public if a provision of this kind can be included in the Bill at a late stage. I beg leave to withdraw this Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMThis Amendment, I think, requires little to commend it. It was, in its origin and genesis, a suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, to add the words
or of parts of, or accessories to, caravans or trailers.Our view is that it would improve the Bill, and my right honourable friend therefore desires that this Amendment should be incorporated. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 55, line 38, at end insert ("or of parts of, or accessories to, caravans or trailers.").—(Viscount Hailsham.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ On Question, Whether the Schedule, as amended, shall be agreed to?
§ LORD MATHERSBefore we part with this Schedule, I should like to raise a point with regard to paragraph 2:
The sale of intoxicating liquor.I wonder how a paragraph of this kind got into this Shops Bill. Is this not a matter for licensing legislation? The heading of the Second Schedule is:Transactions permissible in Great Britain at any time on weekdays and in England and Wales at any time on Sundays.That seems to me to raise the question of Sunday closing in Wales. There is Sunday closing in Wales, however much it may be infringed by the way in which the clubs in Wales are taking the place of public-houses. The question remains: how does an item like this get into this Schedule?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMI think I can allay the noble Lord's fears in this matter, although, as in the case of many other perfectly legitimate points, I am to some extent taken by surprise by the particular 414 point which the noble Lord raised. As this is a very complex measure, I hope he will forgive me if I do not give an absolutely conclusive answer. While he was speaking, I gave the matter my consideration and I hope he will feel that the view I have formed is probably the right one. I think the noble Lord has been misled by the heading of the Second Schedule, which reads:
Transactions permissible in Great Britain at any time on weekdays and in England and Wales at any time on Sundays.The real thing to look at, to see what is the effect of the Schedule, is not the heading, any more than the side notes, but the clauses in the body of the Bill to which the Schedule relates. In this case the clauses to which the Schedule relates are, respectively, Clauses 14 and 22. As the noble Lord will see, the form of words used in Clause 14 is:The foregoing provisions of this Part of this Act shall not render unlawful the effecting, on a weekday of any of the transactions mentioned in the Second Schedule to this Act or the keeping open, at any time on a weekday, of a shop for that purpose.The words of Clause 22, which is the other relevant clause, are these:The foregoing provisions of this Part of this Act shall not render unlawful(a) the effecting, on Sunday, of any of the transactions mentioned in the Second Schedule to this Act or the keeping open on Sunday, of a shop for that purpose…I think that, if the noble Lord will consider the matter, he will see it has this effect. The Second Schedule only provides, if it is read with the relevant clauses, as it must be for the purpose of giving it legal effect, that the Bill itself does not render unlawful transactions mentioned in the Second Schedule. But it does not render anything lawful either. The purpose of the Schedule, read with the clauses, is exactly what the noble Lord would have; that is to say, intoxicants are a matter for the licensing law and not for this Bill. If I am right, as I think I probably am—it does sometimes happen that I am—the view taken by the draftsman of the Bill is exactly that which the noble Lord would have him take.
§ LORD MATHERSI should like to have this put more definitely and authoritatively than the noble Viscount has thought fit to put it now, and I would ask him if he would be kind enough to 415 look at the matter and put himself on an absolutely sure foundation before we part with the Bill as a whole.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMPerhaps the noble Lord will take it from me that if I have made any error in my construction I will communicate with him and explain the error, but I feel sufficiently confident that I am right about this to offer to confess my errors if I have made any.
§ Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
§ Third Schedule [Goods whose sale is permissible in England and Wales on Sunday until 7 p.m. or other time fixed by local authority]:
§ On Question, Whether the Third Schedule shall stand part of the Bill?
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELI raised a point on the Third Schedule during the Committee stage, and I wonder whether the noble Viscount has given his mind to it in the meantime—it concerns paragraph 8. The point, I think, is rather appropriate, on account of the matter raised by Lord Strathclyde with regard to the proposed Amendment of Lord Lucas of Chilworth on the First Schedule, in which he wanted to include fresh fruit and flowers. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, said that it would create anomalies because greengrocers sell dates and dried fruits, as well as fruit and flowers. This part of the Third Schedule includes frozen or dried fruit and vegetables as well as fresh fruit and vegetables. Frozen and dried fruit and vegetables can be sold in grocers' shops, as well as by greengrocers. Grocers sell any number of things besides these particular articles. It makes the Bill much more difficult to enforce and, from the point of view of the local authorities, introduces a very big obstacle. It might not be going too far to say that the Bill might become unenforceable in this respect. Apart from that, it offers an almost irresistible temptation to break the law. I mentioned this matter on Committee stage. I know that the noble and learned Viscount has been burdened with an enormous number of comments and criticisms, and I shall not take it amiss if he has omitted to consider the matter; but if he has, I should be obliged for his views on it.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMI may as well, as I was invited to do at an earlier stage, "come clean" on this matter. It had escaped my notice that I had been asked to look into it, and I must therefore undertake to write to the noble Earl and give him my views, because I cannot give him an offhand explanation. It is rather intricate. I am always afraid of my offhand explanations. They are not always right, even though they are not always wrong.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELI am obliged to the noble Viscount.
§ Third Schedule agreed to.
§ Fourth Schedule agreed to.
§ Fifth Schedule [Provisions as to Exercise of order-making Powers of Local Authorities]:
§ 9.36 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMI have some rather good news for your Lordships, if your Lordships will accept it from me: that this and, in fact, all the other Amendments standing in my name are consequential Amendments necessitated by the Government's previous Amendments. Therefore, I do not propose to speak to them but simply beg to move them.
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 57, line 23, leave out ("five") and insert ("six")
§
Page 57, line 24, at end insert—
("(2) A provision of an order that alters a pair of days previously specified for the purposes of section two of this Act must have been approved by the votes polled, on a poll taken for the purpose, of a majority of the persons who, severally, either—
and were entitled to vote on the poll:Provided that this sub-paragraph shall not apply to any provision made by a local authority in the exercise of powers conferred on them by virtue of subsection (1) of section thirty of this Act in so far as that provision extends to any area as respects which the
417
authority have not previously exercised those powers.")
§ Page 57, line 26, leave out ("one, three or four") and insert ("three")
§ Page 57, line 32, after ("area") insert ("being shops")
§ Page 58, line 6, leave out from ("limited") to ("to") in line 8.
§
Page 58, line 40, at end insert—
("( ) A provision of an order that makes, varies or revokes such provision as is authorised by section four of this Act must have been approved by the votes polled, on a poll taken for the purpose, of a majority of the persons who, severally, either—
and were entitled to vote on the poll.")
§ Page 58, line 41, leave out sub-paragraph (3) and (4).
§ Page 59, line 35, leave out ("date") and insert ("day").
§
Page 60, line 5, at end insert—
("( ) A provision of an order that makes, varies or revokes such provision as is authorised by paragraph (b) of subsection (2) of section twenty of this Act must have been approved by the votes polled, on a poll taken for the purpose, of a majority of the persons who, severally, either—
and were entitled to vote on the poll.").—(Viscount Hailsham).
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ Fifth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
§ Remaining Schedule agreed to.
§ House resumed.