CHURCH OF SCOTLAND (PROPERTY AND ENDOWMENTS) BILL [H.L.] (Hansard, 12 March 1957)

§ LORD STRATHCLYDE
My Lords, I rise to move that this Bill be now read a second time. As your Lordships will see, it is a short Bill and of very limited purpose. Its object is to remedy a minor defect in the Church of Scotland (Property and Endowments) Act, 1925. The difficulty with which the Bill deals arises out of Section 36 of that Act. That section provides that the property and endowments relating to any particular parish shall be used in the first place to meet the proper requirements of the parish or its neighbourhood, as these may be determined by the General Assembly of the Church or by any body to which the General Assembly delegates the power and that any remainder shall form part of a general fund at the disposal of the General Assembly. This has proved to be a very valuable provision. It has enabled the Maintenance of the Ministry Committee, under authority delegated by the General Assembly, to reorganise the endowments of many parishes, so that more appropriate stipends may be provided for the various churches now se-wing these parishes or their neighbourhood.
The proviso to the section, however, placed an initial limitation on the exercise of this power. It specified that except where a benefice is actually vacant at the passing of this Act or has become actually vacant thereafter ", the power under the section should not be used in such a way as to decrease the minister's stipend. It was, your Lordships will see, a safeguard for ministers who held charges when the 1925 Act came into force. Unfortunately, that proviso has had one unintended effect. In some parishes there are collegiate charges with two ministers. This presents 482 no difficulty in the normal case, where the charges comprise two separate benefices—that is, a first and a second charge. As each of these benefices falls vacant the stipend attaching to it may be adjusted.
But in one particular parish—that is, St. Cuthbert's in Edinburgh—the proviso has operated to prevent any adjustment at all. It has been established that St. Cuthbert's constitutes a single benefice, although it has two incumbencies—that is to say, places for two ministers. In the nature of things these two places are unlikely to be vacant simultaneously, and in fact they have never both been vacant during the past thirty years. The result has been that, because of the proviso to Section 36 of the 1925 Act, it has never been possible for the Maintenance of the Ministry Committee to reorganise the endowments of St. Cuthbert's. The Committee, with the authority of the General Assembly, recently represented to us that that was an anomalous situation, and that the anomaly should be removed. We have received assurances from the Presbytery of Edinburgh and from the Kirk Session of St. Cuthbert's that they unanimously agree with the Committee. So the principle of this Bill has the support of all the Church bodies which are directly concerned.
The Bill proceeds by providing that the benefice will be deemed to become actually vacant, for the purposes of the proviso, on the termination of the last interest of any minister who is an incumbent of it when the Bill passes into law. In that way, your Lordships will see that the stipend of the existing minister or ministers is fully protected and further that the Maintenance of the Ministry Committee will have precisely the same power to reorganise the endowments of St. Cuthbert's as they have to reorganise the endowments of all other benefices in Scotland. In short, St. Cuthbert's will be brought into line in this respect with every other charge in the Church of Scotland. I suggest to your Lordships that that is an entirely reasonable arrangement. In commending this small measure to your Lordships' House I would only repeat that it is supported in principle by all the bodies in the Church of Scotland which have a direct interest in the matter. I beg to move.

§ LORD GREENHILL
My Lords, I have not been briefed with regard to this Bill, and I have no special qualifications for speaking upon it. If the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, had not been sitting there, I was going to suggest that my noble friend, Lord Mathers, would have been perhaps the most appropriate Member of your Lordships' House to deal with the matter. I gather that the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, is going to give his blessing to the Bill, and I should like simply to add my blessing to the one which he is about to give.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS BOROUGH
My Lords, when I read this Bill, I was at first a little anxious about the wording, which I found very difficult to follow; but, after listening to the explanatory speech which has been made by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, I think I understand the Bill perfectly. This is an illustration of the fact that sometimes a few words in legal jargon might mean a great deal to many people. I think that that is going to be the case with this Bill. I have had a letter from my noble friend, Lord Mathers, in which he says how very sorry he is that he cannot be present to-day to go even a little further than my noble friend who has just spoken, because he says that he will miss very much the opportunity of uttering a few words of commendation of the Church of Scotland for their work and for the measures which they now propose. I should like it to be known that this is the view of my noble friend, who has such a devoted interest in the Church.
I would add only that, as a mere Sassenach, I have always had a feeling of the greatest respect for the Church of Scotland. They seem to know how to manage their affairs very well without too much interference from Parliament, to exercise on the whole a much better discipline over ministers selected to preach the Word, and to maintain a Protestantism which is of universal admiration in this country, whereas there seems to be an enormous amount of indiscipline in maintaining the Protestant demonstration in our Established Church. I welcome the Bill and hope that it will mean a great improvement to ministers whose stipends will eventually—I think 484 that word should be introduced—be improved. May they continue in their steadfast Protestant faith!

§ LORD STRATHCLYDE
My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Viscount and the noble Lord for supporting this Bill. I would thank the noble Viscount particularly for the commendation which he has given to the Church of Scotland. I am sure that we all regret the absence of the noble Lord, Lord Mathers, who speaks with such great authority on all matters in connection with the Church of Scotland.