HL Deb 05 March 1957 vol 202 cc184-94

3.10 p.m.

THE MINISTER OF POWER (LORD MILLS)

My Lords, perhaps it will be convenient to your Lordships if, with the permission of the House, I make a statement about the nuclear power programme.

The Government, in conjunction with the English and Scottish Electricity Authorities and the Atomic Energy Authority, have now completed their re-examination of the nuclear power programme outlined in the White Paper of February, 1955, which set a target of some 1,500 to 2,000 megawatts of nuclear capacity in operation in the country by the end of 1965. Since we already spend some £250 million per annum on importing fuel, chiefly oil, and this burden on our balance of payments will continue to grow, the importance of our need to develop nuclear power as a source of energy cannot be in doubt. Our task has therefore been to consider the extent to which the 1955 programme can be accelerated in view of technical advances within the last two years.

It is the considered opinion of our expert advisers that in the light of present knowledge the English and Scottish Electricity Authorities can reasonably aim at having at least 5,000 megawatts of nuclear capacity in operation by the end of 1965, and that if technological development continues to be favourable and the necessary physical and financial resources can be found, a figure of 6,000 megawatts could be achieved by that date.

The Government have accordingly decided, with the full agreement of the Electricity Authorities and the Atomic Energy Authority, to adopt as the basis for present planning a range of 5,000 to 6,000 megawatts of nuclear capacity in operation by the end of 1965. This means that the supply of raw materials for nuclear generation, the acquisition of sites and the planning of the transmission network will be on a scale sufficient to bring 6,000 megawatts of nuclear capacity into operation by the end of 1965. The actual amount of nuclear capacity to be installed by that date will be subject to technical experience and development as planning progresses, including the trend of capital costs, and to the availability of physical and financial resources. I am authorised to say that the Government of Northern Ireland are to-day announcing that the Electricity Board for Northern Ireland intend, at the instance of the Government, to bring into commission a 150 megawatts nuclear station in 1963 or 1964.

The execution of this nuclear programme would make a major contribution to our energy resources: a full year's operation of 6,000 megawatts generating capacity would save some 18 million tons of coal. But it would also mean a large increase in the annual investment programme of the Electricity Authorities during the early 'sixties and this would represent a very heavy burden on the nation's capital resources during a period when those resources are likely in any event to be seriously strained.

The programme will moreover involve the erection of new power stations and of overhead transmission lines in parts of the country which have not hitherto felt the impact of the nation's requirements for electricity. This is unfortunately inevitable because nuclear stations raise special siting problems. Her Majesty's Government and the Electricity Authorities are determined to carry through the programme with the least possible interference with the amenities of our countryside or with the rights of individuals. But we believe that this can be done and at the same time some provision be made for that acceleration of the present procedure which is essential if the programme is not to be seriously delayed. My right honourable friend the Paymaster General will accordingly be tabling amendments to existing legislation for inclusion in the Electricity Bill which is at present being considered in another place.

I would only add that nothing said about the prospects of the nuclear power programme in any way affects the importance of the coal industry. However rapidly we develop nuclear energy, coal will remain the basis of our economy and the need to exploit to the full our national coal resources remains as urgent as ever.

3.16 p.m.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, we are obliged to the noble Lord for making this statement. It contains a certain amount of information and it certainly paints a picture of a proposed vast expansion going up from the existing 1,000 to 2,000 megawatts to 6,000 megawatts. That is, indeed, a large programme. It is comforting to think that the noble Lord has warned the public in the statement about the heavy burdens upon the nation which may have to be met, both financial and physical. I am wondering whether his reference to "physical" is confined to interference with amenities, of whether he has in mind also that there may be some difficulty in getting the raw material for the actual development of the nuclear energy. The phrase is rather cryptic, and I should like to be clear about it.

The general picture that I have from the statement, a copy of which the noble Lord so courteously let me have to read before he made it, brings some doubts to my mind. The last paragraph, which says that there is not likely to be very much impairment of the prospects of the coal industry, is comforting. Apparently, according to the statement, the programme is to relieve the burden on the country from the heavy import of fuel oil, to some extent, and is going to save 18 million tons of coal. The prospect there, put together, is quite stupendous, when one comes to look at it. But it would be much more comforting if, against the actual cost saved in those two classes of importation, we could know something of the kind of financial burden that the noble Lord referred to in the statement.

As to procedure, I thought that, in general, with a project of this kind, so large, so important and with such impact on the national economy, it would be reasonable to ask for a White Paper. I see from the statement that the Government propose to have Amendments inserted to the Electricity Bill which is now before the other place. I should have thought that this project being so vast, it would have been much more reasonable, before that is done, for the Government to submit a White Paper for debate in Parliament upon the financial and physical resources available to undertake this programme. Unless a Paper giving that detail can be prepared, I do not think Parliament is really in a position to meet, with proper debating thought, the kind of Amendment which it is proposed to put into a Bill already before the other place. I should be very much encouraged if the noble Lord, no doubt with the cooperation of the noble Marquess who leads the House and who knows so much about the nuclear side of this matter, could tell us that he will produce a White Paper giving something like the estimated cost, in stages, of the proposed programme and of any other interference likely to take place in the national economy. I hope he may be able to do that.

3.20 p.m.

LORD REA

My Lords, I should like to support the noble Viscount in expressing our thanks to the noble Lord the Minister of Power for his clear indication of the new, or rather the expanded, programme proposals of Her Majesty's Government in the field of nuclear power. I do not wish to anticipate the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, who next week is to call attention to the matter of siting of atomic power stations, but I should like to ask the Minister whether he can give an assurance that full attention is being given to the possibility, or perhaps even the likelihood, that, within about a generation or so, the production of nuclear power may be achieved within a small laboratory, or even within a small box no bigger than the Dispatch Box from which the noble Lord spoke a few moments ago. With this in mind, will Her Majesty's Government press on with all urgency the development of more modern and compact methods of power production, before the remaining amenities and beauties of our more remote and invaluable countryside become totally engulfed and for ever spoilt by vast and rapidly obsolescent power stations? On asking a similar question on a previous occasion, I was rather curtly told that the steam engine became obsolescent as soon as Stephenson had invented it. I hope that on this occasion the noble Lord will perhaps be able to give me a rather more helpful reply.

EARL ATTLEE

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he can give us any round figure for this expenditure? We are told that it is very vast, but at the moment I do not know what is the Government's conception of "vast."

3.22 p.m.

LORD LAWSON

My Lords, I think it is a good thing that we have had a statement upon this matter in general, but I am wondering why at this particular moment your Lordships' House is being "jumped" with a statement of this kind, especially in view of the fact that there is down a Motion on this matter. This is no Party question; not a single glint of Party indications is involved. Yet certain clear questions are raised. In view of the obvious apprehension that we saw when Questions were put a week or two ago in your Lordships' House, I am wondering why this statement has been so hurriedly made to-day without having an opportunity of debating either a Motion from the Opposition or my own particular Motion.

It is said, of course, that these are simply nuclear stations for the supply of electricity. It is said that that does not imply anything more than electricity going into the Grid. That is a very childlike assumption, because, when the opportunity is given, I shall show that the nuclear stations may well precipitate industrial reorganisation by the very provisions industry will need to make. If that is so, then I say that, from the electricity point of view alone, the whole course of what will perhaps be a greater industrial revolution than we have had is being decided before Parliament has been consulted. I want also to make the point that members of this House must be aware of the great disturbance felt on grounds of amenity in reference to the siting of these stations. I can raise that matter, because I am not now on the National Parks Commission. I have known what has been going on and it is no good discussing—

THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY)

My Lords, I do not wish to intervene unduly early, but the practice of this House is that, after a statement, it is possible to make a brief comment, but not a speech. I think the noble Lord is really embarking upon a speech. I am quite certain that my noble friend Lord Mills will agree when I say that the Government will be happy to have a debate, when we shall welcome any remarks which the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, may wish to make. But I hardly think that this is an appropriate occasion for such remarks, because it is not one upon which the Government can properly reply to the points he is making.

LORD LAWSON

My Lords, I did not wish to enter into a long speech. I was making what I thought were comments that were made necessary by the precipitation of this programme upon your Lordships' House. All I will say about the question of amenities is that it looks to me as though the National Parks Act is being torn up. We shall have some questions to ask upon that when the opportunity arises for debate.

3.27 p.m.

VISCOUNT HALL

My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for the last paragraph in the statement, in which he refers to the coal industry. All the talk we hear about the amount of coal which is to be saved by the application of nuclear power to electrical generation has led to a feeling that the coal industry is becoming decadent, so I am pleased that that paragraph was put in.

There are two questions which I should like to ask the noble Lord, one of which has been referred to by my noble friend Lord Attlee. In the last two statements we have had upon the development of nuclear power for electricity, we were told the number of stations which the programme set out to build, and also the cost of the programme. I should like to ask the noble Lord whether we can have that information this afternoon, because the Government must have some knowledge as to what this programme is going to cost. In view of the fact that we have made more progress than any other country in the production of electricity through nuclear power, and as there is no doubt that there are many other nations in the world who would like to build nuclear power stations, I should also like to ask whether, in the programme which the noble Lord has outlined, the Government have kept in mind the need for export trade. It seems to me that one of our exports ought to be nuclear power stations. I notice that America has already received orders for nuclear power stations from various countries of the world, and I should like to ask the noble Lord whether the Government have that aspect in mind.

One other question which is important is the economic side. Can the noble Lord give some idea about the cost of generation of electricity under this new system, taking into consideration the capital cost of the programme, and also the fact that the raw material required, uranium, has to be imported into this country. That in itself is an expensive commodity, and I should like to ask whether the noble Lord can give us some idea as to the difference in the cost of generating a unit of electricity by nuclear power and by the modern conventional process?

3.29 p.m.

LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH

My Lords, would the noble Lord accept from me that the brusque interrogation he has received from this side of the House is only a measure of our intense anxiety in the statement he has made? As my noble friend Lord Attleee has asked: what is the capital cost? May I suggest to the noble Lord that it will not be short of £1,000 million? Has the noble Lord, and have the Government, measured this against the other capital adventures upon which, as a nation, they think we should embark? The noble Lord will realise that we have only recently debated an expenditure of £1,200 million for the railways, £80 million of which is to build 24-ton steel wagons for transporting coal from pithead to power stations. Now we are going to have a 275-kilovolt grid system over the country, with power stations sited at pithead to save transporting coal by rail.

The noble Lord now comes to the House with a £1,000 million project for putting up 1,000-kilowatt power stations—on what grid? The most ominous part of his, statement, if I may read it to your Lordships, is this: The programme will moreover involve the erection of new power stations and of overhead transmission lines in parts of the country which have not hitherto felt the impact of the nation's requirements for electricity. May I ask the noble Lord—I am sure he is fully alive to this problem—whether he will see that some far better machinery is set up to listen to the legitimate complaints of the citizens of this country than is set up under his present powers for public inquiries, or, if I may say so, alleged public inquiries, into the destructive nature of the erection of a 275-kilovolt grid? If the noble Lord will forgive my saying so, these inquiries are fast becoming public brawls and not public inquiries. I hope that in the outcry about the siting of some of these atomic stations the noble Lord will not be judge in his own case in the public inquiries that will be held.

LORD SALTOUN

My Lords, would it not be more in accordance with our usual procedure if the Opposition were to put down a Motion and debate it, and let us get on with our Business this afternoon?

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

No!

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

We expect an answer.

3.33 p.m.

LORD MILLS

My Lords, I will try to deal as fully as I am capable with the various questions put to me by noble Lords. First of all, dealing with the questions of the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, I would say that by "material resources" I meant not only sites but steel and other materials, and perhaps above all the brains of the scientists and the engineers who will be engaged upon this work. I have reviewed that situation in order that I should not put before your Lordships a programme which seemed incapable of being carried out. I stressed the importance of coal because it is our fundamental wealth. Our energy requirements are growing so rapidly that we need more coal, more oil and nuclear energy. We have, I think, to bear in mind that world competition is growing and, if we are going to meet it, we have to press on with the mechanisation of our industries, which means more power. Coal, therefore, will remain the fundamental fuel upon which we shall rely for as far ahead as I care to look.

The noble Viscount asked whether it was our intention to issue a White Paper. That is not our present intention, and for this reason: the programme must remain a flexible one subject to periodical review, and I doubt whether it would be your Lordships' wish that there should be a White Paper every time we looked at this subject. In regard to the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rea, about whether we could not have a compact station which would not injure the countryside at all, I think that is asking me to look further ahead than I possibly can. All I can say is that the development of the atomic sciences is proceeding very fast, and nothing at all would surprise me.

The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, asked about the cost. I think I can give him some figures, if he will take them as estimated figures. They are the best estimate we can make in present circumstances. This programme of nuclear power is subject to alteration and improvement. Therefore we shall take every advantage of any improvements and discoveries, hoping and believing that, as we go along, the cost will drop. Conventional power stations to give this power would cost £810 million. The power stations to generate 6,000 megawatts of nuclear power will cost £1,460 million, but taking into account certain additional costs the difference amounts to £750 million.

The noble Lord, Lord Lawson, rather indicated that we had rushed this statement before this House. But surely the Press has for months been full of guesses as to what revised programme the Government were going to adopt. I am sure the public are waiting to be informed of the Government's intention. I have delayed putting forward this statement because I wished to satisfy myself that we had got a practical programme which we could follow, and that is why the statement has not been made in your Lordships' House before this date.

The noble Viscount, Lord Hall, asked about the number of stations. To carry out this programme, I do not think we shall find it necessary to construct more than another sixteen stations additional to the three for which orders have already been placed. The noble Viscount also asked about exports. It is hoped that, as a result of researches which have been made by the Atomic Energy Authority, the practical work which has been done on this problem and, I think I can claim, the lead which this country has established, we shall be able to achieve exports. Furthermore, this programme has been phased in such a way that at the time when we might expect exports to be growing we shall best be able to carry them. The noble Viscount, also on the economic side, asked about the cost of generation. The cost of generation at the three nuclear power stations which have been ordered is expected to be very slightly more than that at new conventional stations—that is, taking into account the capital cost as well as the operating cost. Capital costs are much higher, but the operating cost is much lower. It is, however, confidently expected that, while conventional stations will go on improving in efficiency, the efficiency of nuclear stations will improve much more rapidly, so that ultimately I think we can hope that the cost of generating electricity at nuclear stations compared with that at conventional stations will be less.

The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth asked, whether the Government had measured this enormous capital cost against other requirements. I should like to assure him that the capital needs of the nation are under constant examination by the Government, but I am obliged to the noble Lord for reminding us of the great importance of that fact. Finally, the noble Lord referred to the machinery for looking at complaints. As I said in my statement, the Government are deeply conscious of the need to look after amenities and to protect the rights of individuals. All the Government are seeking to do is to speed up the procedure, because in certain respects it takes too long. They are not intending to deny anyone the right of putting forward his side of the case. As the noble Lord suggests, I will certainly look fully into the machinery in order that, so far as may be possible, we can satisfy him that everything that can be done to protect our countryside and to protect the rights of individuals is being done. But I am sure he will also appreciate that we need this power, and that we cannot put power stations in the countryside in such a way that they and the transmission lines cannot be seen. If it is decided that we go forward with this programme, then I think we shall have to put up with the fact that there are so many more power stations in the countryside and that we cannot have only blue skies with nothing beneath them.

3.44 p.m.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, may I say how indebted we are to the noble Lord, Lord Mills, for the full answers he has given to all the questions that have been put to him with a view to getting die best we can for the country. In fact, if his answers had been included in his original statement, we might have been robbed of many opportunities to question him. The only thing about which I am concerned now is whether, when we have read carefully through his statement, together with his full and, so far, satisfying replies to questions, we can then leave the matter and not put down a Motion. Alternatively, if we think that it is in the interests of the country that we should have a debate on this subject we shall, with the consent of the noble Leader of the House, adopt that course.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, of course we shall be most ready to have a debate if noble Lords opposite want one. Perhaps the Leader of the Opposition will let me know, when he has had time to consider the statement and the supplementary answers that have been given.