§ 3.7 p.m.
§ LORD AMMONMy Lords, I beg to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Report of the Committee of Inquiry into the Export of Live Cattle to the Continent for Slaughter has been considered and what action Her Majesty's Government intend to take concerning the Report.]
§ LORD CHESHAMYes, my Lords. My right honourable friends the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food propose to ensure that cows heavily in milk should not be exported for slaughter; that lairages at the ports should be divided and the animals supervised by experienced persons; and that water troughs, hay racks, fodder and detention pens should he provided. They also agree that approved detention premises should be permanent and covered and should normally be within the dock or airport area or adjacent to it. My right honourable friends will provide that cattle should be fed as well as watered on lengthy internal rail journeys.
As regards the recommendation that vessels should not sad if winds of force 6 or over are forecast, my right honourable friends have decided it would be unwise to fetter the discretion of the master of the vessel and they propose to prohibit the carriage of cattle if the master has reason to expect adverse weather. The suggestions that cattle found unfit for shipment should he sent to the nearest slaughterhouse and that a minimum size might be prescribed for vessels engaged in the trade raise difficulties that require further study. My right honourable friends have come to the conclusion that it would not be in the interests of the animals to relax the rule requiring cattle to be tied while on board ship.
Discussions with the foreign Governments concerned, with a view to making satisfactory arrangements for the treatment of British cattle, are continuing and it is hoped to make a further statement about this immediately after the Whit-sun Recess.
§ LORD AMMONMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for the reply, so far as it goes. But would not the whole of this trouble be ended if the Government prohibited altogether the export of live cattle and restricted trade to the export of carcases?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, the Report of my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh and his Committee dealt with that aspect, and the noble Lord will recall that the Committee did not conclude that this trade should be stopped.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I should like to ask the noble Lord whether it is not the case that most of the steps which are now being taken could—apart from those which are to be the subject of further negotiations—have been taken before? Have the Government powers now to take these steps? Were such powers available to be operated earlier? This trade has been going on for about twelve months.
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, except in certain cases, to which I referred, I do not think there is very much that could have been done earlier, for the reason that it is necessary to know what has to be done before one can do it.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I have said little about this, but I have been concerned that, with all the machinery at the disposal of the Ministry—the county agricultural committees, the advisory committees and so on—they had to set up a special Committee of Inquiry to deal with this matter, and allowed this trade to go on, with a good deal of dissatisfaction, for about twelve months.
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, a good deal of what has been complained about is well outside the jurisdiction of agricultural committees, who have nothing to do with shipping, nothing to do with reception in foreign ports, and nothing to do with foreign travelling arrangements for the cattle.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELMy Lords, I should like to ask the noble Lord a rather less controversial supplementary question. Does what he has just said mean that the inspection of these cattle by a veterinary officer in the ports before 232 they are shipped will be compulsory, instead of optional, as it is at the moment? I imagine that that could be done administratively without seeking any extra powers.
§ LORD CHESHAMYes, my Lords, that is what is intended.
LORD MERTHYRMy Lords, may I ask whether the last few words of the original reply of the noble Lord refer to No. 3 in the summary of recommendations on page 11 of the Committee's Report?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, the last few words of my reply did, in fact, refer to the unsatisfactory conditions which have been complained of abroad, and every effort is being made to try to improve them. I should like to make it clear that my right honourable friends are entirely in sympathy with the public anxiety that these cattle should be treated as humanely as possible, and that any suffering to which they become subject should be reduced to the absolute minimum.
§ LORD MATHERSMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Chesham, has sought to ride off answering the question of my noble Leader by saying that the matter did not belong to the Ministry of Agriculture. Is he aware that the question on the Order Paper is not limited to any Department of Government, but is addressed to Her Majesty's Government?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, I understood that the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, had referred to the responsibility of the Ministry of Agriculture, and he specifically referred to agricultural committees and so on. I still maintain that my reply was correct: that the agricultural executive committees have not jurisdiction over shipping conditions and conditions in foreign ports. I should like to add that we are trying to do everything that is possible, and, indeed, that some of the troubles have been subject to some misrepresentation in the past.
LORD REAMy Lords, I should like to ask one supplementary question which is not controversial. The noble Lord was good enough to say that the Committee would look into the question of hardship in the case of rail travel between farms 233 and ports of embarkation. Can he assure us that investigation will also be made into the position of cattle transported by road, because I understand that there are cases of considerable hardship—of bull calves being crowded together in motor lorries and arriving in a very poor condition?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, I am sure my right honourable friends will bear that in mind, as naturally it will be their desire to alleviate suffering wherever it arises.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, could the noble Lord represent to his right honourable friend the Minister that, while we accept what he has said about what is within the province of the county agricultural committees, I adhere to my point that the Ministry of Agriculture, who have vast machinery and considerable powers, could have acted as soon as the first complaints arose, will-lout waiting for another inquiry.
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, it is true that my right honourable friends have considerable powers; but, with great respect to the noble Viscount, I too, should like to stick to my point: that I think it is necessary to know exactly what the problem is before it can be tackled.