HL Deb 06 June 1957 vol 204 cc235-9

3.21 p.m.

LORD KILLEARN

My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government (1) whether the slogan "Everybody's Gilt Edged Security" is printed in capital letters on the front page of the cover of all National Savings Certificates issued in Egypt during and after the war; (2) whether the warning "National Savings Certificates are of no value to any person but the registered holder" is printed prominently on the last page of the cover of each certificate; (3) whether the purchasers of these certificates are not also notified in print upon the aforesaid certificates, "This book should be kept in a safe place. It should not be left at a Post Office for safe keeping."; (4) how the answer of Her Majesty's Government to a Question in this House on May 15, that the possession of these certificates raises serious and difficult questions of law, can be reconciled with any of the above notices.]

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM)

My Lords, my noble friend's description of the wording on National Savings Certificates is substantially correct. The questions of law to which I referred relate not to the Certificate itself but to the contingencies to which the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, referred in his Question on May 15. These questions of law depend on the facts of each individual case, and cases can therefore only be considered individually. If my noble friend has any which he would wish to bring to my attention, I will ask my right honourable friend the Postmaster General to examine them.

LORD KILLEARN

My Lords, in thanking the noble Viscount for his Answer. I should like to put to him two supplementaries, of which I informed him before we assembled. The first is: can the House be informed what the "serious and difficult questions of law" are; and the second: is it not an established principle of English law that we do not recognise, and will not enforce, laws of a penal or confiscatory nature?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, obviously both these supplementaries were posed before the original Answer to the Question was given. I suggest that my noble friend reads this carefully, and he will see that neither of the two supplementaries arises.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

My Lords, the supplementaries appear in writing on the Paper. Could we have an answer?

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Order, order!

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

I am sorry.

LORD KILLEARN

My Lords, may I, with all respect, say that there may be two views on this? I asked a Question. Am I not entitled to raise these two supplementaries on the original Question? That is a question of fact which the noble Viscount can answer. He said it is irrelevant. How can he prove it is irrelevant?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, I only ask the noble Lord to study the two last sentences of my original Answer before he pursues the supplementary. If he does so, he will find that they are already answered and do not arise any further.

LORD KILLEARN

My Lords, can the noble Viscount tell me one further thing? Are these "serious and difficult questions of law," questions of British law or of Egyptian law?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

If the noble Lord will look again at the Answer of May 15, he will see that I told my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross that the questions raised were questions which might arise in the courts. It is not the practice of Ministers to speculate what the ingenuity of private litigants may be.

LORD KILLEARN

I have not had my answer. With all respect, is it English law or Egyptian law? May I have an answer to that question?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

The noble Lord has been told that these are questions which might arise in the English courts.

LORD KILLEARN

On the application of Egyptian law?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

I did not say that. If the noble Lord will wait until one answer is given, I think he will see that he is getting very far from the point. My noble friend Lord Colville of Culross asked me on May 15 whether I would elucidate the position of certain holders of certain types of security, and I told him that questions of law might arise on which it is not the practice for Ministers of the Crown to speculate, since it is unconstitutional to do so. It is not the practice of Ministers, when questioned about potential litigation, to state to either House of Parliament what issues of law might arise for discussion in the courts, and I do not propose to depart from that practice.

LORD KILLEARN

My Lords, I am sorry to go on like this. Quite honestly, the noble Viscount is not quoting correctly what he said. What he said—I have it here—was [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 203 (No. 68), col. 781]: I am sorry to have to tell him "— that is, the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross— that I have formed the opinion that both of the cases he poses in the Question raise serious and difficult questions of law which might become the subject of litigation in the courts. In these circumstances, I do not think it would be proper for me to express an opinion upon them. There was no mention of whether it would be "constitutional" or anything of that kind. I have quoted the actual words.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, it seemed to me that I admirably summarised my original Answer, and I do not propose to add to that.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

My Lords, may I now ask the noble Viscount whether, before the Government took the action which put this British property in the grip of Colonel Nasser, they had considered the questions that now arise? Did they either estimate the amount of British assets in danger or consider the legal questions to which he has now referred?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, the noble Viscount failed to notice that both Questions relate to National Savings Certificates in the country. They are not, therefore, "in the grip of Colonel Nasser."

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, I take it that the noble Viscount means the Certificates issued in Egypt, or purchased in Egypt, but which are now in this country. It would he very much to the comfort of those who have suffered so badly by Colonel Nasser's action to know that there will be no real delay in enabling them to draw upon these reserves, which they have made for themselves in an English investment, although purchased in Egypt. After all, they have lost so much of the rest of their possessions there as a result of events over which they had no control: they could not influence the action of Her Majesty's Government, who must surely bear the largest measure of British responsibility.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, The noble Viscount will see from the last sentence of my Answer that if the course advised is pursued, it may be that something can be done.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

I must press my question. Wherever these securities lie at the present time, did the Government, before they took action in Egypt, consider the question of the holders of these Certificates?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

I am not sure that I understand the noble Viscount's question. The question was: What was the position of holder of British National Savings Certificates? I explained to the noble Viscount that these are not "in the grip of" the Egyptians but are, in fact, in this country at the present time.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

I know they are in this country at the present time, but the owners cannot get the money. What we are asking the Government is whether they envisaged the fact, before they invaded Egypt, that these people would loss the right to cash the Certificates.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, if the noble Viscount will study my Answers he will see they have not lost the right.

LORD KILLEARN

My Lords, may I "fire" one final question, and that is whether the money which was put up by these unfortunate people who bought these Certificates was in fact used by Her Majesty's Government for war purposes?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

Would the noble Lord repeat that?

LORD KILLEARN

I asked whether the money which was used for the purchase of these Certificates was not in fact used by the British Government for war purposes—whether the Government had the use of the money? Is that not a fact?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

So far as I know, the Certificates were bought in the ordinary way.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, would the Government please explain to the whole country why these people cannot have their money on demand, with the ordinary notice, in the same way as any other British citizen who invests money in National Savings?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, as far as I can tell, there is no reason for the noble Viscount's question. I have said that if these cases are brought to my notice I will see what issues arise and do my best to get the money. I cannot deal with individual cases, of which there are a great number, by question and answer. But I have already offered whatever good offices I or my right honourable friend can show to get the money. It is not always easy to identify the holder, or to make sure of the holding.

LORD KILLEARN

With all respect, the holder's name is written on the back of the Certificate.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, the noble Lord is again getting himself confused. The Certificate which he holds in his hand is presumably one which he could bring to my notice within five minutes of the present time.

LORD KILLEARN

I have already done so.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

Would the noble Lord mind my continuing? The Certificates to which the Question of May 15 related were not Certificates held by the noble Lord in his hand, but Certificates held in various banks in various names