HL Deb 29 July 1957 vol 205 cc262-9

5.9 p.m.

LORD TEVIOT rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they would consider making the teaching of swimming obligatory in all schools. The noble Lord said: My Lords, your Lordships will have noticed the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper. Before asking it, I wish to say a very few words. Your Lordships, no doubt, like myself, will have been shocked by the numbers of people, and children in particular, who are drowned, especially during the summer months. Even this morning I noticed two announcements of drownings. In a great many cases—I have not the figures; I do not know whether they are really available—the cause is that people cannot swim. Often one hears of the great courage shown by some people who cannot themselves swim. but who plunge in to try to save somebody struggling in the water and there have been cases where both have been drowned.

I want to see whether we can do something about this problem. To me it is deplorable that, simply because an individual cannot swim and has never had a chance of learning to swim, should he meet with some minor accident which shoots him into the river, although quite close to the bank he has no chance of getting to the shore. Everyone who reads the daily Press notices these tragedies. As your Lordships are aware, there are a number of schools in which the teaching of swimming is a part of the curriculum. Certainly there are a great many schools where they have what are called "wet bobs", where they will not allow the students to go into the water at all until they have passed a swimming test. My own boy, had to pass such a test, and he could become a "wet bob" only by so doing. Could we not see to it that some sort of encouragement is given to all schools, national and otherwise, to teach students swimming?

No doubt it will be asked, "Where are you going to get your swimming pools?" Well, there are few places in the country to-day where swimming pools are not within a reasonable distance. That is true of nearly all villages, and certainly of towns. In many towns there is more than one swimming pool. I hope that the Government will take this matter into serious consideration, and will see whether they cannot introduce into the curriculum of the schools, and make compulsory, the teaching of swimming. It may be asked, "Why should this be done?" It is a splendid and healthy exercise, and it contributes greatly to the safety of our young people, particularly on holiday. I ask Her Majesty's Government to take this matter seriously into consideration and do all they can to see to it that our people, particularly the young people, are taught to swim, and that every facility is given throughout the country for them so to do. I beg to ask the Question standing in my name.

5.14 p.m.

LORD LAWSON

My Lords, I should like to say a word upon this matter. I think the point to which the noble Lord has drawn attention is a serious one. As is usual at holiday time, the number of lives that have been lost this season is most serious. There is a kind of illusion abroad in the country that if you live away from the seaside, inland, it is quite unnecessary to learn to swim, or that some barrier is going to be put in the way of swimming baths. Last week-end I had the privilege of opening a swimming bath and I was pleased to note the tiny tots who could swim, and who dived in after the baths were declared open. But it is a fact that, away from the sea and inland, there is an illusion that it is not necessary to learn to swim.

Moreover, there are those "penny wise, pound foolish" people who, from the point of view of the rates, do not encourage the building of swimming baths. Your Lordships would be surprised at some of the objections that are not only taken, but effectively taken. This is an age when, if ever, physical exercise is necessary. That is so particularly in regard to the coming generation. I know of no better way of getting physical exercise than the learning of a great art which may be the means not only of saving the life of the swimmer but also the lives of others. That is a singular thing in this country: time after time a man or boy will dive in and save a life, almost taking it for granted, and will sometimes scuttle out of the way in case people want to ask his name. I trust that the noble Viscount the Minister will be able to give some encouragement to this suggestion that we should encourage the great art of swimming. I hope, indeed, that he will say that he will give all the encouragement he can to those local authorities who want to make swimming baths for their people.

5.17 p.m.

LORD HAMPTON

My Lords, there is little doubt that everybody in this House will agree that this is a counsel of perfection: that it is highly desirable that every boy and girl who is physically capable should learn to swim. Undoubtedly, if that could be brought about, it would save a number of lives, because everybody who can swim well is a potential saver of the life of somebody who cannot swim. But there are, of course, great difficulties. I cannot quite agree with the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, when he says that the possibility of learning to swim is within the reach of everybody who really makes up his mind—that is what it came to, I think. I am afraid there are many remote villages in this country where it would be very difficult indeed to find somewhere to swim—my own village in Worcestershire, for instance. We had to hunt far and wide before we could get any place in which to teach the boys to swim. We accomplished it in the end; but that is neither here nor there. There are many places where it would be most difficult.

And how can it be organised? Of course, the Government can encourage it—that is very easily done. But if it is going to be organised on the basis of, and by, the Ministry of Education, it will mean careful instruction when they have managed to get the children to the swimming bath, or to such a place where they can be taught to swim. I do not suppose, for instance, that in these remote districts there are always schoolmasters or mistresses who themselves know the art of swimming and can teach it. It seems to me that it would require an enormous amount. not only of organisation in bringing the children in from the remoter parts to such swimming baths as may be within reach, but of instruction in swimming. which is an art and cannot be taught by everybody. I do not want to pour cold water on to an excellent idea, if only it could be accomplished, but I see the difficulties, and I shall be most interested to hear from the noble Viscount the Minister whether he, too, sees them.

LORD DYNEVOR

My Lords, may I intervene for a moment? There is one further point to which I would ask the noble Viscount the Minister to pay considerable attention: that is, the state of the water in the baths when the children get into it. During my membership of another place a large municipal swimming bath was opened and for health reasons the water was heavily chlorinated. A friend of mine travelling in a train from London heard a lady in his carriage say to another: "I do like the new swimming bath. My asthma has been so much better since I have been bathing there."

5.21 p.m.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, the noble Viscount the Minister of Education will have gathered that there is considerable interest in this subject among the small number remaining in attendance to-day. It is a very important question and I believe the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, was quite right to raise it. Perhaps there is nothing of real substance for us to debate except the point of compulsion, and I am wondering where compulsion in the general layout of education and physical training begins and ends. Is it compulsory for all the pupils for whom the Minister has ultimate policy responsibility to conform to every other form of physical training except swimming? What is the general regulation governing that particular aspect of school functions to-day?

During the many years that I was on the administrative staff of a county education authority I was always interested in this subject and I could see all kinds of difficulties, such as those mentioned just now by a noble Lord in regard to certain districts. The education authority that I was with was a county authority, and the organisation of swimming education would in some cases necessitate perhaps a coach journey of a good many miles each way and would add considerably to costs. On the other hand, whilst it is true that we have lately seen a number of casualties which are very disturbing, it is only fair to say (and I have been a swimmer now, certainly, for about sixty-five years) that there is a much more widespread practice of the art of swimming than there was in my early youth. We owe a great deal to the voluntary organisers who have done so much to make swimming more widespread in the country since those years. In this matter the Amateur Swimming Association and the various school swimming associations have been exceedingly good.

On the other hand I suppose that this suggestion could be quite well extended in city, urban and semi-urban areas, in the new type of organisation of school education, if in every new school building, or even attached to an existing building if the site permitted, there was a school swimming bath, with the ordinary members of the staff qualified to instruct in general physical training being also qualified to instruct in swimming and lifesaving. Great results have certainly been achieved, as I am sure the noble Viscount the Minister will tell us, from many of the schools which have either their own swimming bath available or ready access to publicly-provided baths.

If the noble Viscount the Minister had the general powers to make swimming instruction compulsory there would be not only the cost of travel in rural and semi-rural areas but also a considerable increase in administration costs if there were large numbers of objectors amongst parents who might feel that the particular eccentricities of health and physique of their children made swimming undesirable for them. Those objections would have to be administered with a great deal of care and sympathy and would involve a good deal in the matter of records, examinations, consultations and the like. I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, that while, as an old swimming official, I look a little anxiously at that side of the suggestion, if there is any method at all by which we can extend the knowledge and practice of swimming I shall be very glad to support it, provided that we can get round the difficulties. Finally, I must say that it does us good to-day, when we look at other sports, to see the upholding of the name and prowess of British citizens in the world's competitions. And it is quite magnificent to see the extent to which our representative young swimmers are to-day, if not leading the world, very nearly doing so.

5.27 p.m.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM)

My Lords. I should first thank my noble friend Lord Teviot for putting this Question and also other noble Lords who have spoken to it. In a sense, my noble friend has been pioneering, because, so far as I can recollect, although there have been numerous debates which I have found it my duty to answer since I have held my present post, this is the first debate relating directly to the administration of my own Department since I was appointed Minister of Education in January last. I have to exclude, for constitutional reasons, which I explained at the time, the debate on the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, relating to the Universities, and also that of the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, on public schools, because it has not yet been debated. This therefore is the only debate on education that we have had for some time.

My noble friend, Lord Teviot, has really raised two distinct questions in his speech and in the Question which he has put down on the Paper, and they really demand quite different answers. The Question on the Paper suggests—and my noble friend reiterated it in his remarks—that Her Majesty's Government should consider making the subject of swimming obligatory in the school curriculum of all schools. To this the answer must be "No." This is not because Her Majesty's Government do not attach as much importance to swimming as does my noble friend. It is indeed important in every way, both as an instrument of physical education and recreation, equally suitable for normal children and many of the handicapped—as my noble friend stressed—and also as an insurance against accidents. But the curious fact is that in this country the Government have always set their face against prescribing the school curriculum. In our view this is a condition of public education in a free society. The curriculum is a matter for the teachers and the governors in each school; and for my part, as Minister, I say: long may it remain so!

Yet (and this brings me to the second aspect of my noble friend's Question), whilst it is not the duty of the Education Ministers (by which I mean myself and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland) to dictate what should be taught, it is our duty to encourage and advise on what should be taught; and on this both my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I would wish to see swimming taught wherever staff and facilities are, or can be made, available. I am sure that teachers and local education authorities share our view on this point. The Departments have in fact done a great deal to encourage the provision of facilities. When the Standards for School Premises Regulations were last revised, which was in 1954, it was then prescribed for the first time that: where approved facilities in swimming are provided, the area of playing field accommodation shall be such as may be approved in each case: This, to me, rather obscure sentence means that facilities for instruction in swimming are no longer regarded simply as a desirable "frill", as they once were, but as so much a normal part of the school curriculum as to be acceptable to the Ministry as an alternative to part of the playing field area which otherwise would be needed. I should be happy if more authorities, particularly those in urban areas where land for playing fields is scarce and expensive, would take advantage of this option. Subject to certain safeguards, it is available not only where the local education authority themselves provide a bath for school use but also where arrangements are made for the use by school children of public baths.

My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I are also ready to consider proposals for building swimming baths as part of the premises of new secondary schools where this can be done within the ordinary limits of cost per place. I would agree that this is not easy to do, and that the school has to be fairly large for it to be possible at all, but I am glad to be able to report that within the last two years the provision of some fifteen new swimming baths has been approved on this basis in England and Wales. During the same period, approval has been given to the provision of seven baths in new Scottish schools.

Perhaps this opportunity is not inappropriate in which to express the gratitude owed by us all to those groups of parents and teachers in various parts of the country who have got together to provide swimming baths by voluntary effort. In many cases, this has included most, if not all, of the building work. We have tried to develop in this country a tradition of providing services by a combination of voluntary and public initiative. This tradition is particularly appropriate to the education service, and I hope that others will be encouraged by what has been said in your Lordships' House to-day to follow this tradition by the provision of swimming baths. I hope that all this will reassure my noble friend. I can assure him that Her Majesty's Government and the Education Departments share his views as to the value and importance of swimming. Indeed, I am most grateful to him for raising this matter and for allowing me to tell the House that; within the proper limits of our Constitutional power, which I have tried to explain, the Secretary of State and I will do our best to encourage the teaching of swimming to schoolchildren.

LORD TEVIOT

My Lords. I beg to thank the noble Viscount for his very satisfactory answer.