§ After Clause 30, insert the following new clause—
§ Special provisions as to public inquiries
§ (".—(1) Where an application has been made to the Minister for his consent or 1200 authorisation under paragraph (b) of section ten of the Schedule of 1899, or for his consent under section two of the Electric Lighting Act, 1909, and the local planning authority after giving public notice, considering any objection that may be made and consulting with the local authorities, the Council for the Preservation of Rural England and other appropriate national and local bodies, have notified the Minister that there are objections by the planning authority or by persons aggrieved by the application or by the local authorities or bodies consulted and that those objections have not been withdrawn, the Minister (either in addition to, or in lieu of, any other hearing or opportunity of stating objections) shall cause a public inquiry to be held, and, before determining whether to give his consent or authorisation, shall consider the objection and the report of the person who held the inquiry:
§ Provided that this subsection shall not apply where the Minister proposes to accede to the application subject to such modifications or conditions as will give effect to the objection of the local planning authority.
§ (2) Where in accordance with the preceding subsection a public inquiry is to be held in respect of an application by an Electricity Board, the Minister shall inform the Board accordingly; and the Board shall in two successive weeks publish a notice stating—
- (a) the fact that the application has been made, and the purpose thereof, together with a description of the land to which it relates;
- (b) a place in the locality where a copy of the application, and of the map referred to therein, can be inspected; and
- (c) the place, dale and time of the public inquiry.
§ (3) A notice under the last preceding subsection shall be published in one or more local newspapers circulating in the locality in which the land in question is situated, or circulating respectively in the several localities in which different parts of that land are situated, as the Board publishing the notice may consider appropriate.
§ (4) If it appears to the Minister that, in addition to the publication of a notice in accordance with subsections (2) and (3) of this section, further notification of the public inquiry should be given (either by the service of notices, or by advertisement, or in any other way) in order to secure that the information specified in paragraphs (a) to (c) of subsection (2) of this section is sufficiently made known to persons in the locality, the Minister may direct the Board to take such further steps for that purpose as may be specified in the direction.
§ (5) Where in accordance with this section a public inquiry is to be held in respect of an application for the consent or authorisation of the Minister under paragraph (b) of section ten of the Schedule of 1899, and (whether in pursuance of subsection (2) of section (Further provisions as to placing of electric lines) of this Act or otherwise) the Minister is proceeding concurrently as mentioned in subsection (1) of section forty-four of the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1926, the public inquiry shall extend to all the matters arising in those concurrent proceedings, ant any notice of the inquiry (in addition to any other matters required to be stated therein) shall indicate the extent of the inquiry accordingly.
§ (6) In the case of an application for the consent or authorisation of the Minister under paragraph (b) of the said section ten, where the application relates to land in the areas of two or more local planning authorities,—
- (a) in so far as any of those local planning authorities do not object to the application, no public inquiry need (unless the Minister otherwise directs) be held in respect of the application in so far as it relates to land in the area of that local planning authority;
- (b) if two or more of the local planning authorities object to the application, the Minister may direct that separate public inquiries shall be held in the area of each of those authorities;
§ Provided that for the purposes of this subsection a local planning authority shall be treated as not having made an objection if the authority have made an objection but the Minister proposes to accede to the application subject to such modifications or conditions as will give effect to the objection.
§ (7) Subsection (2) of section sixty-six of the principal Act (which relates to inquiries under that Act) shall apply in relation to inquiries held in pursuance of this section as it applies in relation to inquiries held in pursuance of that section.
1202§ (8) In the application of this section to Scotland,—
- (a) for any reference to the Minister there shall be substituted a reference to the Secretary of State; and
- (b) subsections (2) and (3) shall not apply, and for subsection (4) there shall be substituted the following subsection:—
§ '(4) Where in pursuance of subsection (1) of this section a public inquiry is to be held, and it appears to the Secretary of State that in addition to any public notice of such an inquiry any further notification concerning the inquiry is necessary or expedient (either by way of service of notice upon any person or in any other way), the Secretary of State may direct the Board to take such further steps for this purpose as may be specified in the direction.'")
§
The Commons agreed to the above Amendment, subject to the following Amendments:—
Subsection (1), line 5, leave out from beginning to ("not") in line 11 and insert (" have notified the Minister that they object to the application, and that objection of the local planning authority has")
§
After subsection (1), insert the following new subsections—
("( ) In relation to applications for consent under section two of the Electric Lighting Act, 1909, and to applications for consent or authorisation under paragraph (b) of section ten of the Schedule of 1899 in respect of the placing of high voltage lines, the Minister shall make provision by regulations for securing—
§ Provided that, in relation to applications for consent under the said section two of the extension of generating stations, any regulations made under this subsection may include provision for enabling the Minister to give directions dispensing with the requirements of the regulations, in cases where in accordance with that section the Minister dispenses with the giving of notices thereunder.
§ ( ) Where, in the case of any such application as is mentioned in the last preceding subsection,—
- (a) the Minister is not required by virtue of subsection (1) of this section to cause a public inquiry to be held, but
- (b) objections or copies of objections have been sent to the Minister in pursuance of regulations made under the last preceding subsection,
§ Subsection (2), line 1, leave out ("the preceding subsection") and insert ("any of the preceding provisions of this section")
§ Leave out subsections (6) and (7), and insert the following new subsection—
§ ("( ) The provisions of the Schedule (Supplementary provisions as to public inquiries) to this Act shall have effect for the purposes of this section.")
§ Subsection (8), line 6, after ("(1)") insert ("or subsection (3)")
§ After subsection (8), insert the following new subsection—
§ ("( ) In this section 'high voltage line' means an electric line for conveying or transmitting electricity at or above a voltage of one hundred and thirty-two thousand.")
§ LORD MILLSMy Lords, I beg to move that your Lordships do now accept the Amendments on the Order Paper which have been made in another place to Clause 34 of the Bill. I should explain that, in view of the length which the clause would otherwise assume, we have thought it best to assign the supplementary matters to the Schedule. I propose, therefore, with the permission of the House, to deal with the Amendments to the clause and with the new Schedule together, and later to move the Schedule formally as a consequential Amendment.
The clause, as your Lordships will remember, was introduced in this House to make special provision for public inquiries. More particularly it was to give effect to my undertaking that whenever 1204 a local planning authority objects to the erection of a power station or an overhead line a public inquiry will be held. On Third Reading your Lordships introduced in subsection (1) of the clause an Amendment which would require the local planning authority to give public notice of these projects, consider objections, and to consult local authorities, the Council for the Preservation of Rural England and other appropriate bodies. If the local planning authority notified the Minister that there were any objections outstanding from whatever quarter the Minister would be bound to hold a public inquiry.
The anxiety which prompted the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, to move that Amendment—an anxiety which was shared by your Lordships' House—was, to quote his words [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 204, col. 248–9]:
If the planning authority withdraws its objection it does not matter who else has objected, they are all non-suited.The Government have given this matter a great deal of thought in order to find a practicable way of removing this anxiety. I am afraid that I must say that the clause as it now stands will not work. In the first place, it would require local planning authorities in Scotland and Wales to consult the Council for the Preservation of Rural England, instead of the corresponding Scottish and Welsh bodies, although I am, of course, aware that that was just a matter of drafting. Secondly, it would oblige the Minister to order a public inquiry if there were any outstanding objections. Since my Ministry has to deal with from 9,000 to 10,000 applications from Electricity Boards for overhead lines each year, I am sure that your Lordships will see that this would be an unmanageable commitment. Nevertheless, as I have said, the Government are anxious to go as far as is administratively possible to give effect to the purpose which your Lordships had in mind.The question is how persons and bodies likely to be affected by a project can be warned of what is afoot, so that if they do not like it they can make their objections known, with a view to a public inquiry being held. I recall that in our earlier debates noble Lords opposite stressed the importance of making neighbouring local authorities aware of a project which, although it does not touch 1205 their area, may nevertheless affect their amenities. They have also stressed—and here again I quote the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth—the situation which would arise if the local planning authority did not object. "But," he said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 204, col. 250]
the Council for the Preservation of Rural England, a responsible national body, and, if the project happened to be in Oxford, the Oxford Preservation Trust, a highly respectable local body, and a private landowner or occupier—all are non-suited under this clause.The projects most likely to be controversial are power stations and overhead lines placed on pylons—that is, high voltage lines of 132,000 volts and above. For projects in these classes it is proposed by the new subsection (2) to place upon the Minister a duty to prescribe by regulations how Electricity Boards' applications for consent are to be advertised, and how objections are to be lodged. It is best that these matters should be dealt with in regulations because they will have to be worked out in considerable detail.The regulations must require time limits to be fixed for the lodging of objections. They will also permit the Minister to direct that individual notices shall be served, where appropriate, on such bodies as the Council for the Preservation of Rural England, the corresponding bodies for Scotland and Wales, or the neighbouring local authority which might be interested although the project was outside its area. The regulations will ensure that copies of any objections sent to local planning authorities are also sent to the Minister. In framing these regulations and regulations under the new Schedule, I propose to consult the County Councils Association, as representing the interests of local planning authorities, and also the Council for the Preservation of Rural England.
Under the new subsection (3) the Minister is enabled to order a public inquiry under the clause in the case of a power station or high voltage line if, after considering objections from other quarters and other material considerations, he thinks that a public inquiry is called for. He can do this even though the local planning authority has not objected. It is quite clear to my mind that in cases of this kind discretion must rest with the Minister. But I can assure your Lordships that when exercising that discretion 1206 I shall have individual interests very much in mind. Noble Lords will probably be aware of a recent case in which consent to a high voltage line has been refused because of representations from objectors other than the planning authority. But not every such case calls for a public inquiry—indeed, it is probable that most objectors would prefer not to have a public inquiry if their grievances can be met without one. But whenever the objections are of such a nature that a public inquiry is obviously the best way of deal-with them, or, if apart from the objections, there are other important considerations of policy arising from the nature of the project which seem to call for a public inquiry, then I can assure your Lordships that I shall order one.
After the most careful thought I am satisfied that our proposals will ensure proper attention to individual rights and interests. I may say also that the proposals have been considered by the Council for the Preservation of Rural England who inform me that, so far as their interest is concerned, they are satisfied with the action which we suggest. I can assure your Lordships that to go further than we have done would be to put excessive strain upon the administrative machine, which might well result in a breakdown and would certainly lead to delays that I could not countenance. For, as I have said, we handle from 9,000 to 10,000 overhead line cases in my Department every year. I hope that the Amendments which I have described, and the others on the Order Paper which are ancillary to; hem, will remove the main anxieties which were expressed by noble Lords at our last debate. I trust that your Lordships will feel that I have gone as far as I can to meet your views and will accept them as a fair and workable solution. I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
§ Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said new Amendments.—(Lord Mills.)
§ 6.3 p.m.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord. I am sure your Lordships, as well as a vast number of interested people outside your Lordships' House, will appreciate the detailed explanation which the noble Lord has given. As he rightly says, your Lordships took a different 1207 view from the Minister and Her Majesty's Government on Third Reading. I sense that your Lordships, quite rightly, were really concerned with the rights of the individual.
As the noble Lord has said, as the Bill came before your Lordships on Third Reading anybody but the planning authority would be non-suited unless the planning authority objected to a proposal by the new Electricity Authority. I felt that that was entirely wrong. I knew in my heart that the noble Lord agreed with me. I also knew the defects of my Amendment, but I took the view then that if one wanted to be a dictator and to non-suit the citizens of this country it was very easy. If one wanted to operate democracy it could be a nuisance, and it could be a lot of trouble. But I formed the opinion that the last person who ever wanted to be a power dictator was the noble Lord. Therefore I persuaded your Lordships to take that view.
I should like to say here how grateful I am to the noble Lord for his unfailing courtesy throughout the passage of this Bill through your Lordships' House. I do not think I am committing any breach of confidence if I say that since your Lordships considered the Bill on Third Reading he and I have discussed this matter at great length, and I am persuaded that the noble Lord has come to a really sensible and workable arrangement. I will not agree, if the noble Lord will pardon me, that the Amendment which went through your Lordships' House was unworkable. What it did was to compel the Minister to hold a public inquiry if there was a single objector. If I may put it in colloquial terms, it mattered not whether the single objector was the "village idiot". I felt, as the noble Lord has rightly said, that that put too heavy a strain upon the administration. What we both sought to do was to find a sieve that could sift the frivolous from the genuine and pay proper regard to the aggrieved parties; and we both came to the conclusion that, in the end, the "sieve" would have to be the Minister.
Let me explain the difficulty. I myself, from my experience of the noble Lord the Minister of Power in this House, would put my whole and complete trust in him in this very vital question of the 1208 preservation of amenity and the preservation of the rights of the individual. But, as we know, Ministers come and Ministers go; Statutes go on for a long time. But he has said this afternoon that it is his intention, and the policy of the Ministry, that if there should be objectors, even after planning authorities have withdrawn, and the Minister is then of the opinion that the objections are genuine and should be ventilated in public, he will order a public inquiry to be held. The gist of the whole thing is contained in the words: "the Minister shall consider these objections." This was not a subject of any controversy; the Minister has said that all the objections must find their way to him, wherever they come from, whether the objection is to the siting of a power station or to the siting of an overhead line. In the earlier new subsections—and let us make this perfectly clear—there is ample provision for advertisement and notification; and if there is an aggrieved party and he does not lodge an objection after that, then I do not think the objection can have great validity. It must go to the Minister. Whatever happens after that with the planning authority, the Minister must then consider the objections that have not been withdrawn.
Then the new subsection (3) goes on to say:
…the Minister shall consider those objections, together with all other material considerations, with a view to determining whether a public inquiry should be held with respect to the application, and, if he thinks it appropriate to do so, shall cause a public inquiry to be held, either in addition to, or in lieu of, any other hearing or opportunity of stating objections to the application.I am prepared to accept that—I accept it with thanks—because I think it goes as far as we can to safeguard the individual. There must be a sieve. There must be an arbiter. I had it in mind that the planning authority should be the "sieve." The Minister prefers to be the "sieve" himself. I can imagine no one better than the Minister to hold that responsibility. So I should like to thank the Minister for the way in which he has tried to meet us. There may be others who think that this matter should be spelled out in another way. I do not think the Minister will mind my disclosing that when we discussed this matter we considered whether we should put in 1209 some such phrase as "save if the objections were frivolous"; but the Minister preferred the word "appropriate." I say that, if that is the Minister's intention, I am perfectly happy. I think your Lordships can congratulate yourselves on the Clauses 32, 33 and 34 that have been put into this Bill solely through the efforts of your Lordships' House. I think you have done something that should redound to the benefit of the amenities of this country and also to the position of the individual.
§ 6.12 p.m.
§ LORD LAWSONMy Lords, I also should like to thank the Minister for the very careful yet broad way in which he has handled this situation. I understand him to say that the Council for the Preservation of Rural England would be one of the organisations that would receive consideration on an occasion when there were likely to be objections I think that this is, on the whole, a happy ending to the incident which took place in the House by reason of the vote. All I wish to do to-day is to draw attention to the fact that I think it is a very good thing that your Lordships' House has been roused to the seriousness of the changes which are likely to be made where stations are erected. These changes, as the Minister knows well, will really be fundamental. He knows what happened to the North, particularly, in the industrial revolution through which we have gone. I am sure that neither he nor anyone else would like to see a repetition in a mass way—possibly not so black but varied in colour—of what took place during the first industrial revolution. As I say, I think it is a very good thing that your Lordships' House was roused to the seriousness of this matter and expressed that view in the vote.
I think that the noble Lord the Minister is quite right in the statement which he has made, to the effect that, in view of the large number of cases of this description that arise each year, there was some likelihood of a mix-up as the result of the Amendment which would have been put upon the Statute Book. But I am not so sure that the country fully realises yet what is happening. If this incident has underlined the seriousness of the change that is taking place, the swiftness (more swift than people realise) of that change and its range, then I think 1210 the incident has been worth while. I think that the noble Lord has been very wise, if I may say so, in the way in which he has met the views expressed.
§ 6.15 p.m.
§ LORD HURCOMBMy Lords I shall not detain your Lordships for more than a few moments. I am very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has expressed himself as content with the Amendments which the Minister now puts forward. There were, I think, some serious administrative objections to the Amendment which your Lordships made at a late stage of the Bill when it was in your Lordships' House. For my part, I would rather leave the choice of the bodies or persons whose representations need consideration to the Minister than leave the matter entirely to the discretion of the local planning authority, which may or may not be fully sensitive to all aspects of these important questions. I feel that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has done a great service in forcing the issue to the point at which it has been possible for the Minister himself to shape the proposals into a more practicable form.
In this, and in certain other kindred matters, if I may say so, the Minister has shown a very enlightened approach. He has laid down clearly lines of policy which the Department should follow in these matters. Though he will not remain Minister for ever, I hope that he will remain in his post long enough to give some decisions to show the importance and the reality which are attached by the Government to those wider considerations about the preservation of amenity, the minimum of interference with the landscape, and the protection of the natural heritage of the country in all possible ways. For those are great public interests just as much as the cheap and abundant electricity which it is now his duty, as once it was mine, to promote. I suggest that the real protection for these interests is that the organisations which are concerned with these matters should always be strong enough to be sure that they have enough public opinion behind them, and that they should be vigilant enough—and if necessary vocal enough—to see that the eventual successors of the noble Lord the present Minister are kept up to the level of policy which he has laid down. I am very happy to note that 1211 the Amendments have taken the shape which they now do, and for my part I support them heartily.
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.
§ The Commons made the following consequential Amendment to the Bill—
§ After the First Schedule, insert the following new Schedule—